Regenerative Hospitality & Wellbeing (Roundtable)

Speaker 1I think and I hope. So it's more maybe I think and I hope. Doesn't sound definite, but that the hospitality industry will really embrace the people in general. So looking at, okay, how can we do something that's good, not only for profits, and that guests will also see that and will see okay, I wanna stay at this company. So and in the end, it will become profitable as well, that doing good will become profitable.

the Future of HospitalityWelcome everyone, and thank you for joining this first future of hospitality roundtable conversation on well-being in the hospitality industry. My name is Arjen Eichelebaud. We've created this series of roundtables with students and industry leaders because I believe the future of hospitality needs the voices of students, educators, and industry leaders together. When those perspectives meet, we understand not only where the industry is, but where it could go or where it should go. Well-being is the right place to start. Our industry is built on caring for guests, but real hospitality includes the well-being of the people who work in the industry, the communities communities we touch, and the places we operate in.

the Future of HospitalityAnd today, we will explore how hospitality can elevate or undermine the well-being of individuals and communities and how regenerative thinking might offer a way forward. I'm joined today by four guests. First, have Anemone Schappel, senior lecturer of Hotel School, The Hague Amsterdam. Anemone is also the creator of the regenerative regenerative society minor. Then we have our two students, Emma Muller and Fena Hoffmeister, both a student at Hotel School The Hague Amsterdam. And finally, Cesar Wurm, senior vice president member strategy and development at Associated Luxury Hotels International. Cesar is an industry leader with international experience in luxury hospitality. He's an author and a speaker. Welcome you all, and thank you for joining.

Speaker 2Thank you for having us. Thank you.

the Future of HospitalityAlright. This is an open and organic conversation. There are no taboos and any experience or observation that you have or vision for the future is welcome. Please share anything that comes up in your head. To set the foundation for our conversation, I'd like to start with you, Annemone. Yes. Alright. Annemone, you've been shaping the regenerative society minor at the hotel school. How do you describe regenerative hospitality? And why was this minor created?

Speaker 1So regenerative hospitality is really about giving back more than you take. It's looking at it's a step further than just being sustainable because sustainability is about doing less harm and about a net zero, actually. And if we're looking at regenerative, it's really giving back more than you take.

the Future of HospitalityHow does it So we start Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No. No. No. No. Go ahead. Was gonna ask you how does it how does it differ from sustainability? Sorry.

Speaker 1Well, I wanted to continue if we're looking at regenerative society. So why the miner was created was actually because we had the future of work, the future of food. We had all kinds of miners, and then we thought about, okay. We don't we we embrace the UN SDGs. We don't do anything more with that. So what we wanna do is that year four is really looking at, okay, how do we give back more than we take? Because hospitality is really looking at, okay, yeah, giving back more than you take. It's really looking for looking out for the other, looking for the community, and that's also why regenerative sustainability came into place.

Speaker 1We thought, you know, we've got regenerative gastronomy, regenerative business, but what do we do with the local communities? What do we do with, for instance, NGOs? How do we make sure that we do something to the hospitality industry to make that connection and to create that regenerative society? And that's how the minor came about.

the Future of HospitalityCan you share an example of regeneration in practice, big or small?

Speaker 1Well, I think the two students who are now here today, they have really nice examples actually. So it was nice because we started this new minor and both Emma and Fene, I'm very proud of them. They were two of the students who started doing research for this minor and said, okay, yeah, we would like to do something more and create a bit of impact, and that's why they started to do that research. So I would like to really maybe give the word to Emma on that question.

the Future of HospitalityWe're gonna hear more about that from Emma indeed, but I wanna hear a little bit more from you. Why do you think that this approach is so relevant in hospitality today?

Speaker 1I think if we're looking at regeneration, one of the things we really focus on as well is building connections with each other, making sure that we create partnerships to create a better world. And I think that's what we need to do as a hospitality industry as well and as a hotel school to build these connections with each other and to look at how can we create impact and make better worlds for, you know, the next generation, but also ourselves.

the Future of HospitalityYeah. So you created this minor. Where do you already see that hospitality is moving into this direction?

Speaker 1Well, have some examples because we also create this impact fair with various organizations and one example was for instance, Flores Lift. He's doing this hotels for trees. Yep. So guests can decide not to get their room cleaned and then they plant a tree for that. So that's actually giving back more than you take. I had another example of former students actually, and he's building this Sustainix. So it's a kind of analytical AI tool which is helping hospitality businesses to map out their sustainability and to look at certification as well. So and that was another great example. And we have various organizations come in NGOs who do things for the community, like homeless shelters, yeah, volunteering.

Speaker 1So all these kinds of examples bring bring regeneration, I would say.

the Future of HospitalityMhmm. You mentioned Flores Licht from Hotels for Trees. He was on the podcast a few months ago as as Dragos from Sustenix. I see Dragos next week, actually. So thank you for that, Anemone. Really, really helpful. I'd now like to move to the students indeed because that's why they are here. Emma, go to you first. You spent time in South Africa, and what I remember from our conversation is the excitement and the love that you have for South Africa that you created while you were there. So back to regenerative society, what stood out for you there in terms of community belonging or dignity and how did it shape the way you look at hospitality?

Speaker 2Yes. So thank you, first of all, for having me here today. I think for me, South Africa has had such a big impact on why I also chose to do Tel Skou The Hague and why I wanted to go in this whole area of hospitality. I think with the three words you mentioned, also community and belonging especially, they have in South Africa, service is seen on such a at least of what I've experienced and also what I've gathered from working there a bit and living there, it's seen on such a different level. It's really on bringing gen genuine connections to the guest and really offering a high value service while keeping that personal touch, and I think that's super important. And I think I mean, I also mentioned it back in the third podcast we did, belonging is such a big topic of hospitality because at the end of the day, I feel like wherever ever we go as a guest into the hotels, you know, you want to have that sense of belonging. And I feel like in South Africa, you really have the opportunity through the local communities that also work at these different especially in the safari industry, but at these different lodges.

Speaker 2They really try to bring you that universal need of belonging to your experience. And I would say hospitality there is definitely an experience that I feel like that's where I got a lot of inspiration from. Living there, you know, everybody's super open and really cares for what your needs are, and it's super positive as well even though, you know, you never know. And I I think Vena can say the same maybe for Dubai, you never know what's going on behind the scenes of all these people that work in hospitality and that have this pressure and everybody brings their different things to the table, but there's still that genuine connection and that excitement when new guests come and trying to, you know, show them a part of their community as well and their culture. And I think that just generates such a sense or big sense of belonging, and I think it's super inspirational of how service should be carried forward.

the Future of HospitalityCan you describe an experience that paint a picture, what you just said?

Speaker 2Yeah. I mean, I guess, maybe to go away a bit from Safari and what I usually talk about, but also when I was working in a in a luxury boutique hotel in Cape Town, so in, obviously, a big tourism area, And we had quite like, a lot of international guests come, and the expectations from these international guests often are that all these people that work in the hotel come directly from the middle of Cape Town, and, you know, they're living in quite a stable environment because they're working in this high end luxury boutique. But often, that's not the reality, unfortunately, also with the history of South Africa. And I think that we had guests that were so interested in seeing actually where these, like, where this where these team members were coming from. So we did a private tour with them and actually showed them you know, I mean, this was super open from the team members as well, but showed them part of their local community and where they work from, and it gave them such a different perspective as as well of they're working in this super beautiful building right at the waterfront in Cape Town, and, you know, they're bringing this high level of service. But the story behind it, it's it's not an easy way of how they got there either, and it's it was super inspirational to also see that the guests really cared for where they were coming from, and I think that should be something that gets put more into perspective a lot more often. So

the Future of Hospitalityyeah. If you look at the future of hospitality through your eyes, what do you hope will change?

Speaker 2Well, I hope that I mean, I think there is a lot of change happening all the time. I just think that maybe this is a generational thing as well coming from our generation, but I would really hope that hospitality as such really still gets seen as this art of really curating experiences and that guests and customers really see the effort that goes on beyond the whole service part and that there's really appreciation that comes in with it because I think offering all these experiences, people I mean, they're out there, I wanna say performing at such a high level always and, like, really trying to inspire guests. I mean, it really depends on which area of hospitality you're looking into, but I would love to see more appreciation for actually the work that goes on beyond the customer experiences.

the Future of HospitalityHow long have you stayed in South Africa?

Speaker 2A total Yeah. Of it's over nine years with going back there after So it wasn't just the internship you spent many years there. Okay. You get Yeah. I I grew up there for a while, and then we moved back to Germany. And then I went back there because I couldn't resist to do if I'm not gonna say all about this, but I couldn't resist to go back for my first internship as well and also after work. So you're going back? It's in the long term. In the long term, it's a goal. Alright.

the Future of HospitalityOkay. Thank you, Inge Emma. Thank you so much. Thank you. Fena, I'm going to you. Alright. You experienced hospitality in Dubai at a very high intensity level. What did the day to day reality feel like from the inside? And how did that environment influence your sense of well-being? Because I remember that that it was high intense. Go ahead. Yes.

Speaker 3Well, I also went to Dubai for my internship for my first internship for hotel school Yeah. Which was very interesting because it's a whole different world out there, of course. And I think I I'm the most grateful for going on with this opportunity because it's luxurious hospitality is, like, over the top there. I don't think I've ever experienced hospitality on an higher level than I've done there. So that was very interesting. And at first, you get a long onboarding period, which is quite intense already as well because you're getting ready for a very hectic six months. But the day to day, I was doing front office. So I was I was a guest service executive, which was interesting because as I'm doing my research as well now in emotional labor, you can see that front office or at least the reception is the main department and, obviously, the main part of communication for guests where most emotional labor appears.

Speaker 3So the day to day would be a lot of check-in, checkouts, of course, formalities. But then in between, you would get a lot of complaints, higher expectations because the people pay so many so much money, the expectations rise as well. While the lowest room category already costs a thousand euros, for example, for one night, People expect to have Borgia Warrior view, but in reality, you have a view on a wall next to the to the kids pool. So that's a bit of the difference and the difficulty you experience there. And then the lack of control and the lack of yeah, the lack of of to recover the service provided is quite difficult because you're continuously on 95, 99 occupancy rate. So you have a, like, a very low chance for a nice room move to be done. So it's continuously the pressure that you can feel, but it's very interesting and very educational, I would say. And ex still today today, I'm also, for example, now at work at my second internship, so my last internship.

Speaker 3And here, I'm doing a duty manager internship. And now I'm really fixing those complaints. So in Dubai, I could still move it a bit to another person because I wasn't just an intern, so I could move it to the jury manager over there or the rooms controller. But now it's me recovering those

the Future of Hospitalityservice complaints. Sounds like fast fast learning.

Speaker 3Yes. Well, you're getting thrown in the deep end, but I think that's the best way to learn. And you like it. I would say that yeah. I love it. Alright. Really do like it.

the Future of HospitalityHow did that environment I wanna go back because it's it's high intense. How did that environment affect your personal well-being over time? You spent six months there, and I remember Yeah. Some stories you told told me, and Yeah. You you can you you can share them with us if you want.

Speaker 3Yeah. So I think as well what would for me, personally, would really get the pressure up was, for example, we had a lot of mystery guests coming in Forbes that would check up on us, LQA, and all those standards together, all those different organizations that test you have their own set of rules and set of expectations that you have to maintain and ensure that you comply with them. Yeah. And I think that was the most pressuring for me because every day, I was like, with a check-in. It's not like you get a script, but there are sentences you have to say or you have to address Right. Right. Me room features or whatsoever and call the guest name so many times. And I think that's very interesting, and that's where luxury hospitality also starts.

Speaker 3But I think that was really putting a lot of pressure on us and as well, for example, in every morning, every briefing, we would do role plays, role plays after role plays in front of the whole team, in front of all management. And as an intern of just turned 18, it's quite intense and scary, but you grow with it, and that's really nice. But I would say we would have, like, documents with suspicious guests for LQA or Forbes or mystery guests. And every day, I remember that I always had that person. And then you recognize the face, and then you're like like, the nerves are here, and then you forget stuff. And then I get back. I called my mom. Like, mom, oh my god. What if maybe I lose my lose my job? But all good in the end, of course. But that's the pressure because you're getting checked at. And I think I've learned so much from it, but it's intense. And, also, the complaints you sometimes get and screaming in front of everyone and calling out names when you're wearing a name tag and everything, that's quite intense. And, also, the pressure of reviews you get, Because we would go through all the reviews, and if it would be okay, the lady that checked me in was blah blah blah, they will see in the changes in the system who checks you in, and then so that's a bit of the pressure you will experience, definitely.

the Future of HospitalityYeah. Is that that it doesn't sound healthy to me. What is your opinion on that?

Speaker 3Well, I think to be able to maintain such a high standard of hospitality, I think it's important to have control over situations and to do those role plays, for example. Because even though they throw you in the deep end again by, okay, Fan Out today, you do it without telling you, It's good to have that feedback and realize, okay, this should be done better and everything.

Speaker undefinedBut I have to say with the reviews, I also see, for example, here, if I get a review but it's from a guest saying that the PSA would have been bruised, then I also check-in the system who has done it, and then you don't openly speak about it, and you maintain it within the team.

Speaker 3Actions need to be taken because if the guess is right yeah. If they do it to one test, they can do it to a second one and a third one. And then

Speaker undefinedours go down, and the name and the brands is being jeopardized.

the Future of HospitalityRight.

Speaker undefinedOne It's I understand what you mean, but, yeah, it's a it's a gray area. It's different.

the Future of HospitalityThat's why we're having this conversation. What do you think your generation needs from hospitality culture in order to thrive? I

Speaker undefinedthink if I speak from personal experience and also what I've discovered in my research that mental well-being has obviously been becoming way more the topic today. And there are a lot of initiatives taken by hotels, what I've seen in the world and research, but it's all after it's already been done, like, when the harm has already been done. There's nothing preventative efforts at moments to ensure that we prevent people or employees from experiencing any difficulties, and I think that's what we need. I think in the onboarding period, a more extensive onboarding period would be very helpful with and I also, I would say, now I've created a solution for my thesis that's a guide where leaders can use emotional labor as a strength rather than a weakness because it's undeniable. We cannot remove emotional labor.

Speaker undefinedSo instead of seeing, okay, what can we do to improve it, use it as a strength rather than a weakness. So I think we need some more awareness

the Future of Hospitalityabout this. Sena, thank you. Again, thank you for your and and, Emma, both of you for your for sharing your experiences and your insights, both of you. I'd like to open this a bit wider. So this is for everyone, all four of us. When you look at these experiences at the in and at the industry as it is today, where do you see hospitality really supporting well-being, and where do you see it undermining it? So two different things. Who first? Cesar, maybe you.

Speaker 4Yeah. It's a it's a good question, and was it was really interesting to to be on the hearing, right, end of of this discussion because I you know, being in this industry for a long time, right, I started my first job my first official job in in hospitality. I was in '98 when I started, you know, overnight room service assistant room service waiter, and and it's great to see the progress of the discussions. Right? A discussion like this would would never happen when when I first started nor I would have the I don't know if the courage is the right word, but I guess the emotional intelligence, right, to to be sharing like MF have been sharing. And kudos to this generation, I think, to really be helping us elevate how we look at things, how we improve ourselves, and even from, you know, the university level to be having, you know, a course like a regeneration, right, tourism.

Speaker 4And that is that is very important because that really forces everyone to open up their minds and see, okay, how we can provide better support, you know, at work, not only from services and, you know, overall health care, you know, that that encompasses well-being and and and mental health, which has evolved a lot. But also how do we imply that on the day to day because of this discussion, you know, hospitality is a lot of fun, but also is a very high pressure. Right? I mean, to your point about you have, you know, real time reviews, time access to the million dashboards. So, you know, I I don't think this will ever go away, especially as pressures on labor cost and everything happens. Right? There's gonna always be driving for efficiencies.

Speaker 4And, you know, to to some of the examples discussed, prices are not going down. Right? So people are paying a lot of money for those experiences. So there comes a very high level Mhmm. Of that that it's, you know, adds pressure. But yeah.

the Future of HospitalityThank you. Is well-being something that is for all four of you again. Is well-being something that is talked about openly now in your environments or is still something that it stays under the surface? Because it's when I started, I started I started in 1984. That's a long time ago. And well-being was not not that wasn't on the agenda at all. It was under the surface. And I felt like a loner in the desert. So that's why I'm so happy to do this because I wish it was there forty years ago, but it wasn't. So is it something that go ahead, Anemone.

Speaker 1Yeah. So one of the things I see now, it's also an education. So I've been already working for almost eighteen years in in hotel school, The Hague, so quite a long time. But we're also focusing a lot more on well-being, mental health, emotional intelligence, the adversity quotient. So how do you deal with adversity? All these elements are very important nowadays. And I also see the hotels or the partners that we have, hotel chains are focusing a lot more on well-being. They have, for instance, schemes that you can enjoy sports or other well-being. They've got mental health interventions. So you see it a lot more, I think, also within the industry, but definitely in our education is where we we focus a lot on well-being.

the Future of HospitalityAnd that is something that has happened in the past few years, right?

Speaker 1Well, I think the last, let's say, maybe already eight to ten years that it's been starting to get more traction. And I think it's also because there are there is more, in in general, more awareness on well-being, mental health. Yeah. So people know that is a service profit chain. If you put emphasis on your employees, happy employees make happy guests. I think that's very, yeah, very known saying already.

the Future of HospitalityYes.

Speaker 1And, yeah, it's focusing on this well-being, but I think, yeah, the last maybe eight to ten years that it's been changing. Yeah. Right.

the Future of HospitalityEmma and Fene, does today's industry match the expectations that you had before you entered it?

Speaker 2Well, I mean, maybe I'll go ahead and then Fene can jump in. I think when I started working, like, my first actual hospitality experiences were, I think, not the usual hospitality experiences because I went right into a safari lodge, it's super different. You know? You're in such a different bubble, and you take all the time that you have just to focus on these little guests that you have. And it's super different than when I actually went back to Germany and then also to The Netherlands and was working in hotels there. It was a complete different scenery of how things were approached. So I definitely my expectations changed throughout, I would say. I think I started in a super positive environment, I would say, and then I also quickly learned that this was maybe not the reality everywhere.

Speaker 2And that's I think that's totally normal and understandable because, obviously, it depends on which industry sector you're in within hospitality. Right? And what your experience is that you're serving or if you, you know, if the experience is just a fast one night overstay or if there's somebody that's coming actually for a longer stay and really wants to experience the hospitality side of things. But I do would like, I would say that there is a lot more attention now towards well-being because I think it's just a generational generational thing that we come with, and I think the industry itself relies so heavily on this new generation to continue also working in this in these service sectors. And, you know, there needs to be adaptations as well in that terms of because you need that generation to continue working in hotels because who else will continue to, you know, move forward with that service. So I think there is a bit of two way expectations coming together.

Speaker 2But, yeah, definitely changed from my beginning to where I stand now, especially now with my internship. I'm, you know, being in a management company and you have the management company having expectations towards the hotel portfolio investors, and you actually know also the other side of how it is to be in the hotel and now making that connection of where these expectations come from. You know? Maybe in a harsh reality, investors don't really take note of all the operational things that go on beyond. They just look at the numbers that come out at the end and really trying to make that balance of getting the hotel operations running smoothly and taking care of everybody that's there, but also, you know, satisfying the number part that's involved and the financial part that's involved is super interesting to see those perspectives now as well. Yeah.

the Future of HospitalityShana?

Speaker 3It's for me, it's meeting my expectations, But I think as well, I started hotel school without having the motivation to work in hotels even though as a side job, I was working in restaurants. But I think the education has been very rewarding in real life, I would say, because now as well, I've done cross trainings with sales and revenue management, and I can really see what we get in the courses at hotel school. Yeah. I can now see in real life and then in more depth, obviously. But I think that's very interesting, and my really my goal is to become one day a general manager, but first grow, like, front office manager and then director of rooms and everything.

Speaker 3But now working in a business hotel, because I'm working currently at Sheraton at.

the Future of HospitalityOh, that's right. It's really, yeah, it's really nice. Is that that office in the middle? You have your desk in the middle of the of the of the of the property? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that because that's everyone needs to hear that.

Speaker 3Because of duty manager, of course, you have to be like, it's interesting as well because also as an intern in the weekends when there are no directors or head of departments, the duty manager is the responsible person in the hotel and has to make all the decisions. So I think having the opportunity to have this responsibility during an internship is really rewarding. Even, like, at the same time, it's really nerve wracking in the beginning, but Of course. It's nice now, and now I know what to do and everything. But our desk is located right in the middle of the lobby because we have to oversee the front desk and then the guest elevators. And then at the right, we have our restaurants. And then in the middle of our hotel, it's open. So I can also look at the other restaurants and bar.

Speaker 3And behind me, there's a staircase, the only staircase we have. So I can see everything. Downstairs, I can see the conference center. So that's really nice because we have to be outside and have to be approachable for guests. And I think now working in a business hotel is very interesting because the average length of stay is one point three nights. So the service recovery time is very minimal. And how in Dubai, you could do that with an experience, now it's more monetary or points via married bonvoy or an upgrade to a next room category on the next day. So that's interesting to see the difference, and I'm very I think it's very valuable.

Speaker 3However, my aspiration is really to grow back into the luxurious five star hotel properties because I think what's most rewarding for me is making the experience and more the guest relations sites. So, yeah, I think it's really meeting my expectations, and I'm really happy with that. And I think also the combination of practical and now doing research while I'm also doing research in hospitality, in hotels, luxurious hotels. It's really nice. And everything that I find on academics journals or what I gained from interviews or survey results, I can really see happening on a day to day basis right here as well. So I think that's very inspiring and nice to experience.

the Future of HospitalityLovely. I can visit you soon. I'll be at Schiphol almost every week. So I come I come see you. I come see you. Cesar. You too. You too. Yeah. We got to you, Cesar. Can you share a bit about your about your own journey in hospitality and how questions of pressure, well-being, and recovery have shown up in your life.

Speaker 4Yeah. Yeah. It's been listen. It's been an amazing experience. And to your point, it's been a long journey, and a lot of unexpected because for me, for example, how I got into hotels is that I got the job. I really like the environment, the the energy that you feel, especially at the time. There's a lot of young people working together, so that was that was great. And then I studied hotel schools similar to to the discussion here. And then I started as well as an intern. I got to The US to do a one year internship, which became now almost twenty five years here unexpectedly.

Speaker 4And I spent vast majority of my career in sales and revenue generation. So up until recently, before joining Auhai, I was with hotels, hotel management companies, and then most recently within InterContinental Hotels, overseeing a few brands here in The US. And and it was interesting. I think that for me, you know, wellness has become very important over the last, you know, eleven years or so. You know, I've been sober for eleven years. Well, almost eleven years in nineteen days. But, yeah, it's interesting because I think that I love this discussion because I think it's it's great to be able to share experiences, to be more vocal. I think men, generally speaking, right, we tend to suppress things more. I think women you know, we have a daughter. She's 14, and I can see the big difference how I was and how she is like you know, her her EQ is so so high that's crazy.

Speaker 4And, you know, so for many years, I kept that pressure, you know, assuming how I should be behaving or what I thought people expected me to perform at work when reality, all I needed to do is ask. Right? Ask and talk for things, and you start creating this narrative that can be very inaccurate or, you know, you you you make assumptions that, you know, doesn't necessarily add to any necessarily, you know, better productivity or healthier type of environment. And, of course, I had you know, you know, I'm not saying that that my journey as an alcoholic was, you know, was due to the industry. Of course, there is, you know, many other reasons as to why from not dealing with trauma and things like this in my life.

Speaker 4But certainly, you know, it's one of the the the industries that really allow for, you know, an easy access to you know, it's not not not unusual whenever in food and beverage you finish your shifts. Right? You hang out as a group. You go do things. You tend to be young, and you go party. So nothing wrong with that, but certainly something that I carried way above and beyond. And then it really allowed me for you know, to live a lifestyle that wasn't healthy at all for me and and somehow I was able to manage for many years. And then to me, I, you know, I made, you know, I made the assumption in my mind is like, hey. If there's no consequences, if, you know, there's no negative impact per se, there's nothing wrong with how I'm living, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Speaker 4And, yeah, and then over the last eleven years, I thankfully had, you know, an awakening that, you know, I had to make a change and has been a beautiful journey. And just to be able to have these these these conversations and especially now, I see the difference between, you know, how I was, you know, and and the industry that I started with, you know, over twenty years ago to what it is today. Right? A lot of people approach me and ask for, hey. I'm struggling with this. Even if it's nothing to do with addiction, it's just like a mental wellness, well-being, health habits, however, right, you can be better as a person for yourself and those around you.

Speaker 4And that's a beautiful thing. Gives me a lot of hope, and and I know it's just gonna keep going better and better. Wonderful. That's is is that the reason why you wrote your book?

the Future of HospitalityTo inspire people, to help people? Yeah? Yes. Yes. Can you tell me a little bit? Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah. Show us. Yeah. I wrote a book here, you know, the powers of addiction. Hold it up. Hold it up some more. Hold it up a little longer so we can read it. Weird. Can you see it? The powers of addiction.

Speaker 4Yeah. Fighting freedom in acceptance and recovery. Yeah. And and it took me so, yes. In short, yes. Right? It's to to be able to help make a difference because, you know, the first eight years of my sobriety, I I wasn't public about it because I had a lot of shame. I had my own bias towards addiction that, you know, is just kind of you know, if you see a homeless person, right, you assume a lot of things about them, and and that was my approach to addiction. So so anyway, after eight years or so, I start opening more and more about it. It was very interesting. As I start opening about my journey and sharing, the responses that I got were really surprising to me. You know, I I expected to be met with, you know, judgment and rejection and couldn't be further from the truth. It was really from, you know, acceptance and people, you know, whenever you're vulnerable and you share something, the tendency is for people to feel safe and share that with you as well. And then I was blown away by how much that was relatable to a lot of people either directly or indirectly, meaning they know someone or have a friend.

Speaker 4And even in instances that has nothing to do with addiction. Right? Just being able to be able to share that, hey, everybody usually has something happening in their lives or has had a difficulty or a hurdle, and that is relatable in in any way. And it's just being able to share that, hey, regardless of how dark or how challenging a situation may be, there is always right away to get better, to to get support. And that's where I kind of have four pillars that were really helpful to me and really comes about, like, the awareness, acceptance phase, right, that you accept where you are in your life regardless of what's happening.

Speaker 4So at least you have awareness where you are and what you gotta do differently, where you wanna do it. And then gratitude, you know, when I was really deep in my addiction, I wasn't grateful. Right? I was always looking to the scarcity mindset, what I was missing or what I was wrong or why poor scissor or whatever the case may be. And there are always so many things we can be thankful for. Right? Not not saying that life's perfect, but you know? And then you start seeing your your mind, your brain chemistry change when you do that, and then, you know, a lot of things open.

Speaker 4And then the two last parts is like what we're doing here. Right? Community. So whomever or have positive people around you, you know, have people that you can relate to, trust, and share, then then you can create healthy habits that whatever recharges you and and helps you be able to live the life and and the wellness that you want to be. So yeah. So that has been a a great great journey. So the book has been out for, like, little to over two years. And, yeah, the the the responses are are amazing when people read and and give, you know, reach out and say how it impacted them because I was very open.

Speaker 4Right? So I share everything in my book. I really I I thought if I'm gonna share my story and You do it with filters. Yeah. Yeah. And Can just

Speaker 1congratulate you on being eleven years sober? And one of the things I was thinking of when you were just talking just now is that I have a group of students who are now looking at loneliness, loneliness in the EU and doing research on that. And a couple of them are also looking at that loneliness that comes after addiction. So when you're in that recovery period, and you know, what I was just thinking of because you went public about it, you said first eight years that it was really the stigma maybe or what you felt. And I see that in the students that are doing research on this, that it's also, you know, speaking up about it or talking to others about it. Also, the people who are not in an addiction, right? Because it's also and then they will come with their ideas. And then you see, okay, I'm I'm not lonely in this process or I'm not only, you know, with this group who was also but everyone is having sort of issues or dealing with it.

Speaker 1And that's what I like about it, also this story that sort of confirms it for me. I can report back to my students actually to say, hey, you need to contact me or read the book of CISA on this. And it also reconfirms the adversity quotient. So we say with the adversity quotients, how you deal with adversity, one of the most important things is that you can yeah, if you're grateful for things, indeed just writing down, you know, little things by the end of the day, what you're grateful for, you really rewire your brain and you become more, you have a higher adversity quotient as well. You can deal better with adversity.

Speaker 4So, yeah, it's great that you mentioned that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, so happy to hear that students are researching that. Right? I mean, while they're they're researching, I was parting in my age. So that that shows the progress that, you know, the new generation is doing. And it's interesting because the the loneliness, the isolation, I was very isolated when I was right under addiction, and then to your point after as well. No. And but it's interesting, like, you become addicts, they become so good at faking that, you know, when people are looking from the outside, they wouldn't know. Right? They wouldn't know that I was isolated.

Speaker 4They you know, because you you become very good about deflecting and pretending. So, yeah, that is amazing. That's interesting. I love to to read their findings. It sounds like an interesting study. Yeah. Can I ask a question? Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Do

Speaker 3you have or have you ever researched or thought about and maybe the hospitality industry is a big cause or from some people that are experiencing addictions, or is there, like, kind of a correlation between the two, or that's not the case?

Speaker 4Great question. I don't know the answer. I I didn't research. But, yeah, happy to look into it. I don't yeah. I think, you know, the only thing that I can say is that it's, you know, from a profession standpoint. Right? I think it provides more ease of access. Right? So if someone has a tendency like I had and and so I think it's easier to kind of make it possible because, for example, you know, like, especially on the you know, in sales where I was. Right? There was always a networking event after work. There's always a convention. There's always something. So that platform is natural that people okay. I'm gonna have a glass of wine and, you know, and listen. Most people do it and can do it well. Great. Mhmm. Right? So but I went way beyond that.

Speaker 4But yeah. But that can be kind of easy easier to hide, I think, than a traditional, I don't know for sure, but let's say, in a factory

Speaker 3building cars. Right? I I I don't know if they would present the same opportunities in a way. No. Fair point. I think it's also def definitely more accessible Because if you also look at restaurants or anything, it's so usual and common to just have a drink after

the Future of Hospitalityyour work. That's how I grew up. I don't know any better. When I was 17, 18, 19 years old, Every I I I worked in a French specialty restaurant. I was only 18 years old, and every Saturday night, the the the the the owner opened a bottle of wine for us to taste, but it was drinking every week. And at some point, it was every night when I was older. I was a general manager at a restaurant, and it's show time every you day.

Speaker 1Could also finish all the bottles of everything, you know, if the glass is we're only so the glass is four. It's true. You know? They always have really nice wines, and there was, like, maybe only one glass taken from it. So Yeah. We could just finish the bottle ourselves. So it was really, like, finishing all the bottles by the end of the night. Yeah. Yep. So it's it's it's

the Future of Hospitalityand it sounds like fun, but indeed, there it's a slippery slope. And if you're sensitive, just like Caesar said, I I was lucky. I wasn't that sensitive or but I know people who got addicted because of that. So maybe there were other causes as well, but the access to it, the the the easy access to it, I think definitely plays an important role. Yeah. So it's good that we're talking about it.

Speaker 2Yeah. I mean, also, just to give another example, like, from somebody, like, working in a restaurant, you could have the manager would give smoking breaks. Mhmm. Yeah. And if for me, one that doesn't smoke, at one point, I also said I smoke just to go out for those five minutes and get those five minutes of drinks so I could get some smoking in hospitality

Speaker 1as well, you know, even though now you've got smoking rooms, but it's yeah.

Speaker 2Yeah. You you changed to it. Yeah. So they also get those five minutes of break and can go outside or something.

the Future of HospitalityYeah. Okay. We are we are getting to to the end of our conversation. It's almost been an hour already. This is a question for all of you. If you could redesign hospitality culture, what is the first thing that you would change? Who first? Oh, wow.

Speaker 4All the questions? I I so I don't know. I it's a great question. I I really don't have an answer other than, like, conversations like this. Right? I think it's always great to to be able to do self reflection and look at things that are going great, that are are doing really well and keep doing those. And and the areas like we're discussing today that there is opportunities, like how can we continue to elevate the guest experience while also taking, you know, better care of everybody that's supporting that quest. And and I think that's, you know, a never evolving journey, and it's great to see that that's happening. So it gives me a lot of hope.

the Future of HospitalityGood. I think yeah. Animone?

Speaker 1I would say, yeah, I would say so it's it's great. I I love the hospitality that it puts their guests first, and I think it's really nice to look at the employees, but also the larger community. So seeing, okay, what kind of impact do you make in your community? How can you also create that community feeling? Look at your staff. So I think the emphasis should not move away, of course, from the guests, but should be equally divided. So it's not only for profit. It's not only looking at because I think and I hope so it's more maybe I think and I hope. It doesn't sound definite, but that the hospitality industry will really embrace the people in general. So looking at, okay, how can we do something that's good, not only for profits, and that guests will also see that and will see say, okay. I wanna stay at this company. So and in the end, it will become profitable as well, that doing good will become profitable.

the Future of HospitalityI believe that too. Yeah. Go ahead.

Speaker 2Yeah. Just to add on to that because it fits quite well to what miss Faith or Anemone said, that I think something I learned from one of the first general managers that I was working for, and I would love to continue seeing that everywhere is to not lose the personal connection to your entire team and who is working for you and with you. And even though we all know in the industry that it can get super stressful and that there is always something going on and it never really stops, it's a pending operation, that you can and have to take those five minutes to check-in with, you know, whoever is working in your team. If even, you know, you go into the kitchen and take that time to really understand who your team is and also make them feel seen and appreciated because only then you'll really also notice if something is off or, you know, you need to jump in to help.

Speaker 2So I think on whatever level within the industry to not lose that personal connection because it's always a team that's working in that industry, and it only works if you know how everybody's feeling or if you have that personal connection.

Speaker 3Yeah. I also agree. I think as well what I think is really important is equality. And even though nowadays, that's going way better, from experience, I've also seen that not everyone is treated the same and that sometimes an intern is higher ranked than an engineer.

the Future of HospitalityThat's what your experience was in Dubai. I remember that story, and that's that that stuck with me. May you can share. We have time. So can you share that little story? Because that that is something.

Speaker 3Yeah. I think as well, for example, we got provided housing, and I got a room with one other girl. And luckily, it was a girl from hotel school who is also a friend of Emma and McNee. But the rest, for example, you have categories, so ranks. You know? So number one is GM, and then I am number nine or 10 or something as an intern. But then you have engineers that were lower ranked, and that meant as well for the housing that they would share another type of room with the beds like this to each other, and I had, like, a separate room, And they had to share one bathroom with the whole hallway, and I had my own little bathroom with my friend. And I think that kind of differences Mhmm. Is quite yeah. It's it's it's hurtful to see that that's still there. Yeah. And for example, as interns, we work five days a week, and they work six days a week. And with the interviews I've conducted, I've also seen the swift is there. Like, they're trying to swift from a six day working week to a five day working week. But it's not as easy as it sounds, and their purpose of visits or their not visit, but work is so different than us because most European employees that work there are there to for three, maybe five, maybe ten years as an exception to build a career, to grow to a management position.

Speaker 3And they are there just to work, work, work, work day in, day out. They don't want to go out for dinner. They only want to give their money to their families back home. And I think the fact that the difference over there is so big Mhmm. That's, yeah, of course, yeah, they don't have the feeling to grow, and they don't need a higher salary to have do nicer stuff. They really have it for their families. But as long as they don't grow, they don't get that higher salary. But, yeah, it's a difficult topic, I would say, but I think it's important that

Speaker 1as you're topic. Yeah? So it's not only in Dubai. We don't see it as much in maybe the Western world, but if you look at other places, there you really see a kind of caste system as well. Right? So all the different ranks and also lots of inequalities based on where you come from, based maybe also on the color of your skin. Oh, yeah.

the Future of HospitalityMan Yeah. Or woman, I mean, there. Yeah. Still there. So that's why it's Yeah. That's why it's good we have these conversations, I think. And I think this with this first episode that we have done today, we just opened the positive Pandora's box, so to speak, about well-being in hospitality. But in general, I think there is so much to talk about. So this is the first episode, but I I feel that there is so much more to talk about and to share, and we need to keep the conversation going with industry leaders and with the students and, of course, with the lecturers. So thank you all for being on this special edition, this first episode. There's a whole series coming, and I encourage you to also invite your fellow students.

the Future of HospitalityAnd we're gonna make a beautiful episode for for LinkedIn, for YouTube from this. So thank you all.