Mental wellness in hospitality: the nervous system layer

the Future of Hospitality (00:00.532) Yeah. the Future of Hospitality (00:04.041) Welcome everybody and thank you all for being here. This is the first Sustainable Stay roundtable focused on mental wellness in hospitality, a future of hospitality podcast. Over the past few months, I've been thinking a lot about this subject, partly because of conversations I've had across the industry, but also because of my own journey and recovery over the past few years. And what struck me is that we talk a lot about wellness, but perhaps not enough about the state people arriving. People are arriving tired. Overstimulated, constantly connected, and sometimes exhausted before they even check in. At the same time, hospitality is evolving. Guest expectations are changing and teams are under pressure. And the question then becomes, what is the role of hospitality in all of this? This conversation is supported by UMind, UMind.org, and I want to thank Keith for helping us bring this pilot episode to life. And before we start, I'd love everyone to briefly introduce themselves and tell us who you are, what role wellness plays in your world today. And I think Keith, you go first. Keith (01:09.048) All right. I my name's hi guys, my name's Keith Dickie. I am the COO and co founder of U Mind and this we are a neuroacoustic company, but today I'm here in a capacity of mental wellness and hospitality and the understand specifically through the lens of the nervous system. I can jump right into answering if you want to or I can let everyone else introduce what do you prefer, I the Future of Hospitality (01:33.895) Okay, well let's do the introduction first and we come back to that after that. Jeremy, you go ahead. Jeremy McCarthy (01:40.05) Yeah, hi, I'm Jeremy McCarthy. I am the CEO and founder of a new company that I've just launched called Leisure Alchemy, which is a digital platform and a newsletter that covers topics and news and commentary at the intersection of leisure, wellness, and hospitality. But most of my career I've been working in hospitality, working with brands like Four Seasons, Starwood Hotels, and most recently Mandarin Oriental. we where I was the group director of leisure spa and wellness for the last twelve years. the Future of Hospitality (02:14.632) Thank you, Jeremy. Simone, go ahead. Simone Puorto (02:18.862) Thank you so much for having me. Simone, I've been in the industry for twenty seven years now. first part in the hospitality space, the second part mainly on consultant. I'm a professional consultant, author, I'm on guest lecturer as well, and you know, a lot of other crazy things going on. the Future of Hospitality (02:38.909) All right. There's a lot more because you wrote a lot of interesting pieces. I I saw them on on on on LinkedIn, but we come through that. Javier, go ahead. Javier Suarez (02:53.359) Good morning everyone. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. I am a consultant, wellness consultant. basically I help people and hotels transform their spa into profit centres, which is which is a broad sentence, but it's not easy. I've worked in spas for twenty six years, starting from being a physiotherapist all the way to being a regional director with six senses for many years in in Europe. And n I'm no longer with the company with Six Census. I left literally a month ago. I'm very excited about the new future. the Future of Hospitality (03:27.76) Okay. All right, we all are. Thank you so much. Let me just throw in the first question and you know what? The first that wants to comment on this or answer this question, you just go ahead. Are people arriving at hotels today looking for comfort or are they looking for recovery? Keith (03:32.31) Jeremy McCarthy (03:54.674) My my answer would be they're looking for an experience. you know you know they they want to have a meaningful, fulfilling, and sometimes transformational experience. And the the way that I look at it is that our guests have a limited amount of free time. when people stay in a hotel, depending on the type of hotel, their stay is usually short. There's usually a lot of things that they want. the Future of Hospitality (04:00.229) Okay, elaborate on that. Jeremy McCarthy (04:24.231) Do while they're there. And they have to make tough decisions about how they're going to spend the limited amount of free time that they have. And they're looking for, you know, what's gonna really give them a lasting, memorable experience. and for some people that might mean wellness, for other people, it might mean culture, it might mean relaxation, it might mean dining. So everybody, you know, has their own. take on what's gonna be the most important use of their time when they're staying with us. the Future of Hospitality (04:57.202) All right. Simone Puorto (04:58.302) Can I add a follow-up to that? Because and this could be counter-argument. but it's but it's you know, I think that to a certain extent it's also about the fact that more you know, most of most guests, sure, they wanna live an experience, but maybe they also need the permission to stop having experiences. And you you know, when you when you go to a hotel, you're the Future of Hospitality (05:00.058) Yes, please. the Future of Hospitality (05:21.679) Okay. Simone Puorto (05:24.95) You're not coming all with luggages now, you know, and we all know that. We come with algorithmical fatigue, you know. When we travel for work, for example, we know it just we're jet lagged, you know, we traveled and we got like a bunch of notif notification, we cannot work properly without a laptop. It's it's you know it's piling up, okay? And and I think what we should do more and more, from a design point of view, but also from a from a relational human to human point of view is Understand that we need to design experiences, whatever would mean with that, around the fact that travelers are physically exhausted when they come to us. So, and I think this is something we tend to forget, and we try to overstimulate with guests when they when they arrive, and then it creates like some level of of a snowball effect. So, again, and you know, it's just I'm always a little a little off with my with my thought, but I think it's the experience is great. the Future of Hospitality (06:15.027) But that's good. Simone Puorto (06:22.658) But the you know, the ability not to have an experience for once, that is something I would crave. the Future of Hospitality (06:29.314) I I feel you. Yeah. Go ahead. Keith (06:29.449) look, I think I think this is gonna be an excellent conversation, guys, honestly. but let me so let me let me s say when I got prompted to come on to talk about this, like I think about this from the perspective of what how is the guest arriving, right? Like so I come from the healthcare world, right? And so Simone, what you just described, you described allostatic load. And this is the concept of before you arrive at the actual hotel. You wake up in the morning and the first thing you do is your days disrupt because you're probably an important person. You have a management job. You manage people. You have people important things made that you have to be changing to go on this vacation, right? That's the first thing. Then I've got my disruption because now I've gone and I gotta get in a taxi. I didn't go to normally. I got the stress during the during that. Then I'm gonna meet my wife and then we go down the through TSA and I'm stressed out. Like all of these things our nervous system incorporates and views as threats, okay? the Future of Hospitality (06:57.17) Mm-hmm. Keith (07:25.665) So these threats all accumulate throughout the day. And then you have the person arrive when it's scientifically this is called allostatic load, right? And it puts them in low grade fight or flight survival mode. And so you're again, I am new to this world of hospitality. I will admit that I don't know this. But when your the guest arrives, you guys, I say you guys, we at this point now. Treat them very carefully at the moment of check-in because you subconsciously are aware of this, right? they've had a tough day. But the moment they leave that experience, that atmosphere is not aware of that allostatic load that they're carrying still. That one moment didn't turn that switch off, right? It takes time for that to happen. And then there's a secondary compounding effect that I am just blown away by that this is not common knowledge and understood in this industry. the Future of Hospitality (07:52.21) Or it's happening or left out there. Keith (08:18.345) It's the first night effect. Okay, this is a study done out of Brown in 2016 that said the first night you stay anywhere in a new environment, your brain keeps itself awake. Okay, now let me back into why that happened. Okay. For decades they had been doing sleep studies, okay, and they had always had this phenomenon where they knew they had to throw out the first two days. Always. Through first two days of garbage data. Okay, and they always knew that. And then 2016, they actually finally studied this. A guy named Sasaki. the Future of Hospitality (08:19.129) It's just the best. If this is a study of the cracking, and that's the thing that we're doing. Keith (08:47.657) And and cr out of Brown. And he studied it, put on functional MRIs on people, and they found out the first two nights are of this our first night effect because your brain literally leaves the left hemisphere on. So it does it, it's constantly on that night. Okay, so this is why when you're a new environment, you're less likely to get a good night's sleep. It is compounded by the fact, and this it is compounded by the fact that the audio sense is the sentinel sense. It's the one that never sleeps. the Future of Hospitality (08:48.657) Okay. Keith (09:14.505) And it's often the least f least thought about actually from a hospitality perspective. So you have these compounding effects of allostatic load arrival, an atmosphere and an architecture that's not fundamentally set up to understand and support that, and a scientific biological phenomenon known the first night effect that strings together, and you're talking about no offense, an experience. It doesn't matter if the experience doesn't align with having a regulated nervous system. the Future of Hospitality (09:42.929) I see personal. Keith (09:43.752) of the guest. It's layer zero that is just fundamentally not thought about or designed around yet. And I believe this is what the guest is like when they are saying when you hear these words frictionless and wellness and neurowellness, right? All these things in longevity. It's really the the markets trying to understand how do you address this? And I see very few hotel operators or asset owners That understand the concept of your guest is arriving with allostatic load and you have this first tonight effect occurring. No one, very few understand that, and almost no one has a plan to do anything about it. And even less if they have a plan, they have no talent and infrastructure to execute it. Massively, massively behind. Like, so anyway, that's I'm I'm gonna get off my soapbox. That's my take. I'll stop talking. the Future of Hospitality (10:36.655) Xavier no go ahead Jeremy Jeremy McCarthy (10:41.925) I think I I sorry. Well I just wanted to chime in on that because I think in the spa I I think you're absolutely right, Keith. And I think we don't think about that in the hotel. And I'm I'm aware of that research on the first night effect, and I'm also aware of it personally when I travel I experience that. but I think in the spa department we do think about that because the Future of Hospitality (10:59.513) But okay. Jeremy McCarthy (11:05.607) We get those guests who come into the spa and it's exactly like you described. They're in traffic, they're running late, they come rushing in, they've just left a work meeting, they've been checking emails as they're walking into the spa. And you can't just take that person and throw them on a massage table and expect that they're gonna relax and enjoy the treatment. So we always have to build these layers into the spa experience that gradually brings them to a state where they actually would be ready to receive the treatment. And so that's why, you know, like in the case of Mandarin Oriental, for example, we actually have the guests sit down, we remove their shoes before before they even go further into the spa. We take their shoes off right at the entrance, we give them some slippers, we bring them a cup of tea, then they go back into the locker room. Now they're taking off their street clothes and changing into a rope. And that's an a deeper transition because now you are kind of shedding your armor from you know the battles that you have been confronting out in the real world and you're putting yourself into this you know soft comfortable environment then you go into the relaxation area the lighting starts to dim, the music changes, there's candles, there's tea, and you know, and then maybe you go into a heat and water experience and you're having a sauna and a steam. And after all of this, Keith (12:05.407) Mm-hmm. the Future of Hospitality (12:06.48) Thank you. Jeremy McCarthy (12:30.117) Now you've kind of been able to go through a process and you're able to relax and receive a massage. But to your point, we don't think about that journey on the hotel site. Like, how do you take someone from that moment at check-in to when they're getting into bed for that first night of sleep, which we know is likely to be disrupted? How do we how do we bring them on a journey that prepares them for that experience? Keith (12:44.32) Mm-hmm. Keith (12:54.343) That is an outstanding analysis and example of that. And like I view the the the people there's two different camps, right? Like where spa and wellness money is coming from and who the clientele is, if it's a new group of people that's gonna be this longevity or if if I which I personally believe the people that were adopting the spa in the nineties, the early two thousands, these are the actually early adopters of the concept of delivering welfare inside of hospitality. Healthcare is poorly positioned to do this in a large amount. Okay, so then this is out of a little bit broader the scope. But outside of that, you had early adopters where you've built and tailored experiences for people that were looking for specific types of welfare. And as it comes out of the spa and goes into the broader hotel, you're gonna have a larger subset of people that are looking for a variety a larger variety of interventions and therapeutic outcomes. For example, you may want someone that's looking for meditation or spirituality as a component of this. Or you may want someone that like, I want no experience at all, like Simone is saying, right? I want the environment and the tools to have that experience. Right. So out but your your validation of it, right, is like you this is how we've tailored it inside of the spa is that because you've understood the nervous system so important as the layer zero to create that exact moment and experience you're after. But the moment they step out of that spa and go back into it, it's the Future of Hospitality (14:06.695) But this is when you have all the critics that have quite a lot of it's quite like. Keith (14:15.403) thirty thousand watt lights on them is blaring conversations and there's no concept of man what like okay how do I continue that experience so I don't immediately slam my nervous system back into a c a contrary experience. the Future of Hospitality (14:22.766) Yeah. the Future of Hospitality (14:30.23) All right. Javier, you got something to say? Javier Suarez (14:34.303) Yeah. I agree with all of you guys. I think it's it's a it's a great conversation to have. But also at the same time, having spent twenty-six years in in the reception of a spa, I can tell you the guests don't know what they want. No. No, yeah, they they don't. We we we we think we think they do, but they don't because they don't know what's possible. So the Future of Hospitality (14:49.826) They don't know what they want. Is that what you said? But that's an interesting one. Javier Suarez (15:00.605) Basically every hotel is different and and we tend to think we in the wellness world tend to think that our guests want meditation or yoga or a massage or but they don't know what's possible, you know. And in Sixth Census we always stepped outside the box and offer things that people didn't know it were they were possible, right? We started with fire ceremonies and people were like, What the heck is that? you know, that's crazy and that's out there. But now every six census has a fire ceremony upon upon a arrival. So yes, guests are you know, arriving completely exhausted and but they don't know how to fix it. So this is where the professionals come in. And this is where we'll we'll talk about this, I'm sure, in along the conversation, but this is why to me wellness has to be everywhere in the hotel. And unfortunately nowadays, wellness is only in the spa. And this is why guests get lost in translation. And if you know I I used to say, listen, I do a great average capture rate, which is 30%, the Future of Hospitality (15:45.742) Only as easy one thing I just wake now just to play some head for Javier Suarez (15:55.864) but what about the other seventy percent? Where are the other seventy percent, right? So my GMs are always complaining, you're always complaining. I'm not complaining. You know, we we we we are wellness, we wanna sell wellness, but seventy percent of the hotel escaped doing something else because they didn't know that we could really help them with the exhaustion that they have instead of just going to a thousand activities. the Future of Hospitality (16:19.199) Thank you. Simone Puorto (16:19.426) Can I just add one one last line? Because I think there is another element that could be very, very important and maybe we're not discussing right now, and because we're looking at from the from the angle of exhausted travelers, but we also have exhausted staff. And that is another problem, you know, because these guys are you know, I can I'm not an expert in in wellness, but I you know, I I've been in the logistic of hotels for almost thirty years. And you know the problem, you know the drill, you know, these people are underpaid, overworked. You know, it's very hard to have any level of understanding of the other if you are in that space where you're pretty much squeezed out. You're you're empty. There's nothing else to give, not even for yourself. So I I think it will create some level of snowball effect. And you know, maybe you got the science to back it up, but but you know, it this is just my gut feeling when I see when I see the interactions. the Future of Hospitality (16:56.364) you're absolutely right. I experienced that yesterday actually. I saw the staff. I s I I could see that everyone was just exhausted and stressed out. I was like, guys, please, you need to change this. Keith (17:08.651) Mm. Yeah. Keith (17:18.963) You guys, that's again this like you you you're hitting on this like the science of this is just there, right? It's called this is called co-regulation and it's polyvagal theory. Like a human being transfers their energy to another human being. A stressed-out staff member transfers that energy to their actual guest. There's no deb like there's not a debate on this. It's just science. It's very well understood. And so Instead of having the conversation around, well, it's employee turnover that we're gonna try to save because we don't want them to be bur be burnt out as much or any of that, or they those are all true and there's ROI and all that. But the most fundic fundamental basic thing that hospitality does is serve a guest. If if you have someone serving that guest in any capacity that is dysregulated in any capacity, you are diminishing the ability of that experience. Right? That's how you get people to start valuing the employee health. the Future of Hospitality (18:05.525) I'm just a little bit of that. I think how you can take directly items just as a Keith (18:17.267) as you say it's directly tied to this experience that we're spending billions of dollars trying to curate. the Future of Hospitality (18:23.966) Absolutely right. let's take a few steps back. J Jeremy, I wanna go to you for this. In an earlier conversation you told me about the early days of wellness and spa in hospitality. And looking back over the past thirty years, what has changed most about the people arriving at our hotels compared to back then? Jeremy McCarthy (18:42.931) I think I think a few things have changed. I mean, the the the world has changed an incredible amount. So we talk about personalization a lot in in the h hospitality world, but the reality is we could look at ninety-nine percent of our guests and we know that they're all facing the same wellness challenges because everybody in the modern world is movement deprived. So they come in to see us. Everybody has similar challenges with their bodies because we're all spending too much time looking down at screens. We're all spending too much time sitting in chairs. So, you know, pretty much 99% of the guests who come into our spas have certain very predictable physical experiences that they're having from spending too much time on technology. but on the mental side, it's the other way around. We're all experiencing mental obesity because we are just absorbing. and processing more information than the mind was ever meant to have to process. And so so people coming in to the spot today have those two challenges. And I think because of that, wellness has shifted over those over those past 30 years. When I was growing up, wellness was predominantly a physical experience. You would you would talk about you know you would talk about weight and obesity, you would talk about smoking And you would talk about heart disease. That was those were the main aspects of wellness that people were talking about 30 years ago. If you and I've done this before, if you talk to young people, and you know, I go like I think Simone said, talking to universities and doing guest lectures, when I talk to students and I ask them what wellness means to them, it's all about mental wellness. They don't mention weight loss, they don't mention the Future of Hospitality (20:26.175) Six degrees. Jeremy McCarthy (20:35.653) nutrition, they don't mention, you know, not getting enough exercise. One hundred percent the the thing that young people are most concerned about when it comes to wellness is mental health, stress, you know, allostatic load, like Keith mentioned, even though they might not use those words. But that that is what people are experiencing today in ways that that they never were three decades ago. the Future of Hospitality (21:01.116) Right. Can I ask you what was your inspiration? Because you implemented the first spa, if I remember that correctly, thirty years ago? Jeremy McCarthy (21:10.491) No no no. The the f the fur the first spot the Future of Hospitality (21:11.942) sorry. All right. Jeremy McCarthy (21:17.521) No. Spa's I mean I I think I think of spas as as a timeless offering that you know spas or some version of a spa has been around in every civilization since the dawn of recorded history. So I can't take cred credit for for inventing the first spa. the Future of Hospitality (21:18.579) Okay, sorry. the Future of Hospitality (21:32.596) True. Yeah. the Future of Hospitality (21:39.346) No, not even but implementing in a hotel. I thought that we we I thought that would Jeremy McCarthy (21:42.61) Yeah, I mean Mam Mandarin Oriental Bangkok, which just celebrated its hundred and fifty year anniversary, is often credited as being one of the first spas in a in a hotel. but e but even even that, I think, you know, wellness facilities like this have have always been around and been evolving. So yeah, it's an it's an ongoing evolution. the Future of Hospitality (21:55.379) That was it. the Future of Hospitality (22:07.561) It's an ongoing evolution. Anyone wants to chime in in this? I go to Javier. Javier, one thing that stay with me from our previous conversations is that while we talk a lot about wellness on the guest side, we just mentioned it, there's also the reality behind the scenes. And based on your experience with Six Census, how can hospitality genuinely create well being for guests if the growing number of teams are well well stretched out themselves? Javier Suarez (22:37.306) Well I think the future of wellness and hospitality, it's not a bigger spa. It's it's it's a healthier hotel. It's it's definitely you know, I I've been fighting years and years, and and maybe the word fighting is a bit strong, but but to to make sure that everyone in the hotel understood that wellness is not a choice, it's not an amenity. It's something that is lived in the hotel on a daily basis from the guests when they check in, you know. The air that you breathe, the sound that you you know, that you hear in the hotel or you you don't hear, the the the the quality of the paint that we use in in in our rooms or the carpets, the quality of the canteen, food that we serve, the the activities that we provide for the for the employees that you just mentioned, that they're burned out. So we need to take care of them so they can take care of the guests. Who takes care of the carer? You know, I I worked at a hospital for the Future of Hospitality (23:23.242) Yeah, please talk about it. I I would have Javier Suarez (23:34.428) for many years in San Francisco and and and and and that the we had that phrase as we enter that the hospital, which is who takes care of the carer? Don't forget that. I mean it's it's crucial that the Yeah, it's it's an evolution, right? Keith (23:44.264) It's gotta be frictionless. That care's gotta be frictionless to them too, right? Like you can't like for the guests, we always talk about it being frictionless, and then we if we offer anything to the hotel service staff on the other end, we make it impossible to access around their life, right? Like it's gotta be frictionless because these people are living a life where service is constantly demanded of them. So they by definition themselves don't they're they're they're suffering from the same problem that you're offering premium services to on the guest end. the Future of Hospitality (23:48.433) I think I think the list of people have already the Future of Hospitality (24:07.049) Yeah. Keith (24:12.469) And you gotta find a way to redistribute that service to the actual y the set the staff. And it's gotta be done frictionless because their life is so limited in terms of their capacity. the Future of Hospitality (24:13.609) I don't think that's basically. Javier Suarez (24:23.302) We gotta practice what we preach, right? I mean, the hotels, y you look around and from the general manager down all the head of departments, no one no one cares anything about wellness. They don't they don't do wellness, they don't do yoga, they don't exercise themselves, they work themselves to death 16 hours a day for a paycheck, right? And and and this is the world that we're living in today, because now this is why people are burned out, because GOP is very important, Abdita is very important. So the Future of Hospitality (24:23.996) The fact that we're going to page like any hypothesis. Okay, well it's a more popular. Javier Suarez (24:51.852) money, money, money. And and and yes, we we can dress all the all the things with beautiful names and long words and and but so on and so forth. But then in reality, it's not happening. The guests are feeling that more and more because you know I started working in a spa twenty six years ago and anything flew back then. You could do anything you wanted because guests didn't know much about, you know, spas or it was something that it was fairly new. days guests have been to the best spas in the world. The Mandarin Oriental Bangkok is is definitely one of is right up there, you know, and they they they get it and you know, six censors and and Oman and you name it, right? So guests have been everywhere and they've seen the possibilities. So they identified immediately when they step into a hotel, whether it's true or not. Jeremy McCarthy (25:39.1) I I think in this discussion, and you know, Keith might be able to explain the science of this even better than I could, but I think you also have to think about the difference between use stress and distress, the you know, the the positive side of stress and the negative side of stress. Because the reality is hospitality is hard work. Like we're we're not gonna solve that problem. I always tell my teams a part of our job is that we need to kind of in a way, we need to absorb the stress of every guest that comes in the door because our job is to run around like crazy behind the scenes, making sure that they have this seamless, flawless, super tranquil, super relaxing experience. And for a lot of people who work in hospitality, we we genuinely really care about our customers. And and that is a source of stress. You know, if you don't care, you're not stressed. If you care deeply about the experience that your guest has, then as soon as something goes slightly wrong, you're gonna be you're gonna feel that stress and you're gonna feel a lot of pressure on yourself to do whatever needs to be done to resolve that situation and make it better for your guests. But it's because you care, it's because you believe deeply in what you do and you have a strong sense of meaning and purpose behind what you do. So so I think we're never gonna eliminate you know, all stress completely for our colleagues, but but we want the stress to be positive and meaningful. And and I always believe you know, what Javier said is exactly right. We have to practice what we preach. And every element of wellness that we deliver to our guests, we have to think about what is the version of that that we can deliver to our colleagues. So if we're helping our guests to improve their movement practice and their movement patterns, how are we helping our colleagues to do that? the Future of Hospitality (27:09.064) And we access to the company that we clicked to our desk. You have to make a market. Okay. Jeremy McCarthy (27:30.735) If we are if we're helping our guests to be more mindful and learn meditation skills and things like that, how do we help our colleagues do that? If we're offering longevity services and and giving our guests diagnostics and and activities to help them expand their health span, how do we help our colleagues do that? And and you know, it's it's like you said, they they have to understand what this wellness world really means and they have to experience it personally. the Future of Hospitality (27:38.703) and they came out this one through eight and gas up. Jeremy McCarthy (27:59.208) to really be able to relate to the guests on these levels. Keith (28:04.227) just just excellent. I mean, really, just I mean, but so with this the idea here, right? Like, if you've got I think the understanding that the stress is there is a good thing, right? Like it's acknowledged that during hospitality and the service of it, this low grade stress exists. I think the challenge is how do you account for that and deliver and develop tools that then support that accumulation of the stress that I'm wearing, right? That's not it's not well understood that that's occurring as a the Future of Hospitality (28:05.073) Just I mean just I mean but what just did you have to do? Keith (28:33.623) part of it, right? And you have to articulate that as a part of the labor associated with this is my nervous system is going to become wrecked over an eight hour or twelve hour shift. We don't talk that way, right? Like we like the you start talking that way, you start saying, okay, well what do we do to put the nervous system back into place? Go take 15 minute break. Put your head headphones on, calm down. Go for a nice walk, get back to nature. Maybe we like these are the like and they're executable and it's like taking the pieces of Javier it's saying the Future of Hospitality (28:36.486) Okay. But that would be like which we Keith (29:02.337) practice what you pre what you're doing and sell into there and it's taking pieces of what you're talking about, Jeremy, of the actual like this is how it needs to be delivered and how I understand the spa in the hotel and the operations. And Simone is taking what you're doing is from saying this is the technology. And it's like all of these come together and this is the totality of what's needed of an ecosystem of both IP and technology to truly make a frictionless wellness hotel. Where you have the concept of Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, that's it. the Future of Hospitality (29:04.742) Yeah, it's kind of actually. Jeremy McCarthy (29:26.757) I I well I I have a really good example on that because when I when I was a spa director, one of one of the things that worried me was your staff are often having to spend the most amount of time with the most difficult customers and you know and sometimes the most abusive customers. And you end up, you know, you have a difficult customer who's who's unhappy and they're screaming at you, and that is the one that you have to then invite them for a free experience, you comp their check, you give them a refund. And and that is that that can be really difficult to be treated poorly by a customer. And then that is the customer that you're going above and beyond and doing the most for. So so one of the things that I always told my team is anytime that happens where you have to give something away for free to a difficult guest, then I I challenge them, now I want you to find a guest that you absolutely love. the Future of Hospitality (30:07.603) I think the probably more might be anytime that happens very difficult because I think it's the key to have to be that I love it. Jeremy McCarthy (30:25.159) that is an absolute pleasure to serve and do something for them. So whatever you whatever you just spent on that difficult guest, you now have that budget to spend on a guest that you love. the Future of Hospitality (30:36.994) Okay, I wanna be the guest that he loves. Javier Suarez (30:39.41) Yeah. Jeremy McCarthy (30:39.635) Well and and and that's a good point, Arjun, because you're incentivizing your guests to be great guests. And you know, and we we should be rewarding those guests that are absolutely a pleasure to serve, not just the ones that, you know, have the loudest voice and and you know and try to be difficult so they can get their way. Javier Suarez (30:42.524) Yeah. the Future of Hospitality (30:59.385) Yeah. I know. Simone Puorto (31:02.86) You know, I was I was in EHL the other day and I had a conversation with Michael Levy, you know, Citizen And he came up with an an amazing concept to me. I said, Look, we do have a button on our software called RAUC, random act of kindness. And all of the all of the staff is entitled from time to time, no question asked, to do this random act of kindness. It can be anything, you know, just the just a drink or you know on a on a on a free upgrade, whatever. And and it he told me, look, when you see the response we do have from a reputation point of view, it's crazy. It's it's it's it's it's very because on top of just giving something to the, you know, the customers you do really love, now you're giving the possibility for the staff to take a decision without being micromanaged. That it's another, you know, stress factor for for most of the people we are you know. the Future of Hospitality (31:31.77) Mm-hmm. Simone Puorto (31:58.531) These guys we they work for us, they are so much micromanaged, it's it it's not even fun. So yeah, very interesting. the Future of Hospitality (32:02.69) Yeah. Cool. Okay, move on. Simon, you've spent years looking at the intersection between technology, humanity and hospitality. Do you think people are becoming more connected or more disconnected? And was that what does that mean for hospitality? Simone Puorto (32:24.174) That's a good one. I think we we tend to we tend to confuse connection with connectivity. And there are two different things, okay? Because because if we talk about connectivity, technology, and that is my thing, you know, it's it's it gave us like infinite connection, if you think about it, right? Now the problem is, is that really meaningful? That's a different story. the Future of Hospitality (32:34.905) Yes. Simone Puorto (32:53.022) And especially, you know, and and to a certain extent it's it was always like that, you know. It's n technology, and you know, most philosophers agree with that, is is not neutral. It's never neutral. It's going to change the way you do things, right? It's it's whatever technology, it's it doesn't matter if it's if it's clode or if it's the chopper two point five million years ago. It's just it will change the way you operate in life. You know, though you can also say that to a certain extent, technology is what makes us human. You know, because we are you know at the pinnacle of the intellectual pyramid just because we do have technology, you know, it's just and so you know, for better or worse, we are who we are because of technology. Now the the problem though is that this lack of neutrality will change the the the conversation you have with people and the and the and the relationships you do have with people, right? We're seeing right now, and this is pretty scary if you think about it, but we're seeing more and more people going to artificial friends, artificial spouses, you know, just just because there is this interesting thing happening, and you know, probably you can prove it empirically as well. You know, you try to talk to Chat GPT, for example, or try to talk to to to Claude, and the system will always try to you know, make you feel safe, you know, and a frictionless conversation, and there's no resistance at all. So, you know, it you will create this filter, this bias where you think you're a freaking genius, first of all, every idea is great, and then it will just confirm everything. Now the problem is if you go back and you know my background a little bit, I wanted to be a philosopher twenty-seven years ago, so I ended up in hospitality. It's it's it's full of crazy people, so we're pretty much in the same field. But anyway, the thing is the Future of Hospitality (34:21.283) Sure. the Future of Hospitality (34:41.933) True. Simone Puorto (34:43.542) If you look at Hegel, what Hegel used to say is a relationship with another human being, is it only possible if that human being resists you to a certain extent? That resistance is very important, right? What we're seeing now is this lack of resistance. So when you talk to Chat GPT, there's a lack of resistance and it will create this filter bubble, this bias that is super, super dangerous. the Future of Hospitality (34:55.907) I see. Simone Puorto (35:09.314) problem my problem this is I'm working on a paper right now on the same on the topic is is the opposite when we have when we do have relationships that are so scripted and in hospitality we see that quite a lot you know because we got standards but it's they are so scripted that they can also create some level of lack of resistance. So you know there is this concept that maybe you're familiar with and that's called uncanny valet right the Future of Hospitality (35:24.931) But the Future of Hospitality (35:37.035) Like that's good. Simone Puorto (35:37.081) The more the more a robot or an artificial intelligence looks like a human, the more you start having like a sense of fear, right? And it happens with like humanoid humanoid robots, for example, quite a lot. I'm more concerned on the opposite one, and this is this concept I'm working on that I call the reverse uncanny valley. So when you have a relationship with a human, that it feels so scripted, so automated, that now you have this sense of you know uncanniness to a certain extent. And that is very, very problematic. Now, the way I put it, the way I see hospitality is, and again, maybe you guys can explain the this the science behind that. I can only explain the philosophy behind that. To me, hospitality is, if anything, Lacanian, you know, from Lacan. And what Lacan realized is that up until you know, up until we're babies, like six months, eight months, we think we are the center of the universe, right? We don't understand that there's anything. Javier Suarez (36:12.636) Mm-hmm. the Future of Hospitality (36:25.429) Right. Simone Puorto (36:35.938) You know, we are our gods, you know. And then we realize that in front of the mirror, it calls it the the mirror stage, and our life becomes way complicated now. you know, because before that, you cry, your mother arrives with milk, and you think you are the center of the universe, right? And I think what what good hospitality can do is putting you back in this Lacanian state where you are the center of the universe. And the way I put it is we are all little babies in a lobby, basically. Now, in order to do that though, The relationship needs to be human. So it doesn't have to be completely frictionless. That is my point. It needs to have some level of resistance, the resistance that Hegel was talking about. So are we more connected now? I would say no. And technology is part of the problem. And it's not only because we are using too much technology, but because we are asking to our staff to act like robots, basically. You see my point? the Future of Hospitality (37:32.315) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see a big difference with I started in hospitality 40 years ago and there was barely I mean I've I remember our first electronic register. Honestly, and and and and there was no technology. Everything was there was only human connection. And that's how I was I grew up, how that's how I grew into hospitality and the landscape is so much different. right. Now I see that and sometimes I just Reminisce I mean, look looking back, I was like, I wish it was the eighties. You know, it's it's different. Simone Puorto (38:07.902) I think everybody does. You know, the the way I put it is my brain is in 2050, but my heart is in 84. You know, it's nothing nothing good happens after the 80s to me. But you know, we had the perfect level of technology, you know, it was great. And again, I started when I started in ninety nine, I believe it or not, I started in a in a hotel managed by trappist monks in Italy, in Rome. So you can imagine the level of technology was zero, right? They don't didn't even have a PMS. the Future of Hospitality (38:14.54) See, that's what I mean. Simone Puorto (38:36.13) But funny enough, I made a lot of friends with guests back then that I still I'm still friend with these people now. And I think it was because we didn't have this level of of layer of techno of technology that can actually help you out, you know, remove the repetitive tasks, fine. But it can also burden with extra work. Because now the problem and you see that the problem is whenever you check in in a hotel, this this person checking you in. the Future of Hospitality (39:03.775) Check the way to these things. Simone Puorto (39:04.706) does not only have to have, you know, soft human skill, it needs to have some hard skills. And we are basically hiring people in the hospitality space that are half receptionists, half developers. It doesn't work. It just doesn't work. Keith (39:20.191) Hmm. Jeremy McCarthy (39:20.817) Yeah, some Simone, we did digital detox events quite a bit with within Mandarin Oriental. And one of the things that I thought was really fascinating is, you know, today normally you go do a wellness activity, maybe a yoga class, let's say. You go to the yoga class, the second that class is over, everybody gets up and runs to their phone to see if they got any messages. the Future of Hospitality (39:23.713) I think the thing that I would have to make that I've must have Jeremy McCarthy (39:47.208) But when we took the phones away, when we were doing these digital detox events and people wouldn't have their phones with them, then people didn't h feel the need to rush off and go back to their device. So it just kind of would naturally happen that people would linger after the class and start chatting with each other. And it just was such a clear example of how because we don't really think about how how much the world has changed, but that How how how much that just having that simple piece of technology affected that dynamic of whether you actually connect with the other people who are in your yoga class or not? Javier Suarez (40:23.866) Right. Keith (40:27.776) I I see Simone Puorto (40:27.85) But back to my point, technology is not neutral. That's the thing, you know, it's and and and I work with technology quite a lot. You know, I have two AI startups myself, but I can still tell you technology is not neutral. It will change the dynamics of relationships. It's a case in point. Keith (40:30.944) That's that yeah. the Future of Hospitality (40:42.902) To dynamics of relationships. Keith (40:44.245) think it's I think it's it's not the s I don't think anyone's I think it's all I think everyone's here, right? I don't think there's anything there's anything wrong here, but I think it's the context which it's in. Let me take about an example let me give you an example of where technology can be extreme friction in a situation and then where technology can be supportive of the situation. Right. And I'll think about it from the guest perspective, not from the not from the other end. So a guest is wearing an aura ring, right? And so you guys you got an aura ring, you got some sort of body information on it, right? the Future of Hospitality (41:04.978) Okay. Right. Keith (41:09.621) And so that person is receiving these alerts and updates. And then you guys are receiving those alerts and updates. And you guys have that information. They're sharing it with you. Okay. And so now you guys are, you have no ability to do anything with this. But you can know that it's there. You can track it, right? And so you can only do is let them know that you know that, which is actually going to give them more friction. It's going to cause them to have another, this is what's going on. Someone knows something about me, right? And that information will be useless to you to be able to execute and operationally make it useful to where your experience is better because of that. the Future of Hospitality (41:17.33) And currently classified that's open thing. That's what that was simple. Keith (41:39.318) You're introducing technology and creating friction in the introduction of it. Okay. And now if you had another example, like for example, when you knew if someone's aura ring was done and then they're walking into a spa and they were at their resting heart rate was depressed and their cortisol spiked, you will know that walking in. How can you alter the workflow based upon that? There's an example wherein you can use it in a way to make it less friction, right? Your point, Simone, is phenomenal about the the Future of Hospitality (41:40.455) Yeah. That's not that. the Future of Hospitality (41:54.279) Yeah. the Future of Hospitality (42:03.529) I think it's not Keith (42:06.305) whole concept that you actually need a level of friction for a human interaction. I think that is absolute insight and that is going to be a huge part of the little nuance that makes for uptake on moving forwards technology, but still keeping the AI or the human component, which is really the slight amount of friction with human to human interaction that creates the experience that Jeremy's seeing over there where you don't have phone to go to your immediate things. I'll have a little bit of friction and have an awkward conversation. Boom. the Future of Hospitality (42:10.995) I think I just have to think about your picture of the policy. Well, you can use right. Keith (42:33.771) You got over it, you had that ability, that was your lowest friction option, you chose it, and what did it do? It created a new experience. Right. And so there's a balance between using friction in the exact right capacity. And it becomes way more important when you start thinking about using it with technology. the Future of Hospitality (42:40.775) I think it's not Jeremy McCarthy (42:49.553) I I think I mean it sounds like we're all, you know, somewhat in agreement that that, you know, there's good el aspects of technology and there's parts of technology that are harmful. I think one thing though that I see right now in the trend in hospitality wellness, which is going really hard in this longevity direction and there's all this new investment in longevity and putting these longevity clinics in, and it's usually very tech driven. the Future of Hospitality (42:55.679) Thanks a thing. Yeah. Jeremy McCarthy (43:17.905) So, you know, usually the the the longevity model is usually based on three things. It's one is having, you know, really cutting edge diagnostics. Two is having some kind of medical oversight. So you have a qualified person who can read and interpret those diagnostics. And then third is having some, you know, state-of-the-art biohacking technology that you're putting your your guest into. And and obviously there's all ki I mean there's you know tons of new s technology coming out, red light therapy, sound vibration, you know, new cold plunge technology, sauna technology. So all of this stuff, you know, could could be beneficial. But I think what's often left out of the longevity discussion is that, you know, really you don't you don't necessarily have to have any of that. You know, you don't have to have the Future of Hospitality (44:08.177) Well you have to have any the take yard time you don't have to have the take the thing I can equip the help of you know what you have to do is I can have sometimes the type of it helps you have Jeremy McCarthy (44:12.625) the state of the art diagnostics. You don't have to have the state the state of the art cutting edge equipment. If you really want to help someone improve their health span, what you have to do is is be able to inspire them and motivate them and coach them to change their behavior in a meaningful and lasting way. So the technology is there and if it helps to achieve that end, then it's beneficial. But the technology without the behavior change the Future of Hospitality (44:37.979) And beneficial. But the technology with knowledge that we can use. Jeremy McCarthy (44:42.348) is you know, a is gonna be a very fleeting experience and not really leave a lasting impress. the Future of Hospitality (44:44.223) Yeah. Javier Suarez (44:50.554) I listen, I couldn't agree with you more. I I I think that you know the the future of of of wellness is is is creating space space for less. It's not adding more, guys. I mean, less is more. Listen, the the simplest things, you know, again, I'm I'm sorry because I'm I'm come from a hospital background and I work in hospitals for, you know, twenty-six years. I have a master's degree in geriatric physiotherapy, now it's called longevity. the Future of Hospitality (45:03.582) Less. Less is less is more. Javier Suarez (45:19.516) Twenty-six years ago it was geriatric physiotherapy, right, or geriatric medicine. Now everybody's talking about this trend, right, of longevity. I s I swear to God, I'm so tired of of this because this is marketing, this is just money. And you can tell that, you know, listen, the greatest impact is is is made with better sleep, with less noise, the reduced the the you know the cognitive load, the the access to nature, you know, forced walking, the Future of Hospitality (45:33.757) Yeah. the Future of Hospitality (45:39.728) Is it fans people like that has to take very comfortable it's good for technical buttons? But if they take the lecture. Javier Suarez (45:48.527) It it's beautiful. The human connection, you know, like you were mentioning, Jeremy, digital disconnection, you know. And and and people are going the other way. And and this is why people are more disconnected than ever. Because you I go to a hotel, you know, what are what are the latest gadgets that you have and and and and you mention the oral ring which stresses the heck out of people because, you know, they have this t type A personalities which they want to beat the the the the the the score that you give and then their holidays are no longer relaxed. They're completely stressed because he got a sixty o out of a hundred. So I I think w I'm not sure we're going the right way when it comes to this because and this is why listen, you probably know this. This is why small boutique hotels are doing great and hotel chains are struggling, because they're launching all these longevity clinics and biohacking. And you know, I launched the biohacking thing in Six Census six years ago, and we implemented it in all the Six Census and Normotex and red lights and everything. And guests come in and they they all want to try this, but it let's be honest, guys, it doesn't really make a difference in one session. But the guests ticked the box and and they said it was great. They had a terrible night's sleep. Yeah. So at the end of the day, what are we doing? Instead of like you were saying, Jeremy, let's help them understand and reconnect with themselves. And you know, we launch a program called Spiritual Healing. in in in six cents, it we never launched it, we tested it at Dorovali. the Future of Hospitality (46:57.126) It's more like a gimmick for the guest. Pro probab yeah. Simone Puorto (47:01.111) Checklist. Javier Suarez (47:15.078) But it but guests couldn't care less and we asked them to to give us our their phones in in exchange for some discounts at at the hotel and we we gave them some cards, conversation cards, when they went to the restaurant in exchange for the phone, so they could talk to each other. People couldn't care less about that. P w they would never give us Jeremy McCarthy (47:31.143) Beautiful. the Future of Hospitality (47:32.977) That's cute. Simone Puorto (47:35.117) Javier. Javier, can I add something like very quickly? Sorry, but I I think you touch a point that that we're underestimating because you work in hospitals, right? That is your background. Now and again I don't want to be the the s you know the philosopher, but you know that that's what I am. But if we go back to the that if you go back to the root, you know, hospitality and it comes from hospice, and that's the same route of hospitals. The funny thing is that in Latin it means two different things. It means guest. Javier Suarez (47:45.008) Yes, before. Yeah. the Future of Hospitality (47:56.461) And to be actually. Simone Puorto (48:05.334) And it means host. It means friend and it means stranger, enemy. So basically on the same route, you do have the people receiving the hosting and the host himself. Now, my problem is when you get a level of too much technology, and to your point, again, I'm a techno enthusiast, so I'm sure there is a good way to use technology, but if you put technology in a way that you remove the human element to your the Future of Hospitality (48:07.356) Well Simone Puorto (48:34.734) point, you remove one big part of the hospitality of the hospitality term because now you're breaking it down in two. Now it only means guest. It doesn't mean host anymore. And you know, I came up with the idea at some point that we should take some level of Hippocratic oath, even in hospitality, right? And I call it like the hospitality oath. I need to come up with a with a name. And that is we care for the other and we also understand that maybe the another luxury of the future, especially wellness Javier Suarez (48:51.793) Ha ha ha. Simone Puorto (49:04.546) can be also making sure that we are sleeping in environments that will not try to manipulate us algorithmically. Because again, it's great to know that you know all my needs in advance. But again, it could put me in a bubble. Because now I will not be able to experience something that is completely off track for me, right? Because if you know exactly what I want, and if you know exactly what I want before I book, I will book that hotel, I will book that spa, I will book that wellness section, and I come and you will you know you will you will build the the experience around me and I will have that, but I will never get lost. And I can tell you all of my best memories is when I got lost. So this is another big part, I think. Sorry. the Future of Hospitality (49:46.697) No, no, perfect. Anyone? Jeremy McCarthy (49:49.864) Well, I j I just met a woman. I interviewed her because she wrote a book about this this idea that we have all been kind of dancing around a little bit. her name is Maggie Chen. She's a professor at the hospitality school at EHL in Switzerland. you know her. You know her. Okay. So great. So she sh she just won at the Global Wellness Summit this year, she won the Deborah Simon Award. the Future of Hospitality (49:59.932) Yeah. Simone Puorto (50:08.152) Good friend. Good friend. We did a we did a few podcasts together. Yeah, good friend. She's amazing. Jeremy McCarthy (50:19.963) which is for a leader advancing mental wellness. and I actually was honored to receive that award previously, the f the first year that that it was established. So when I heard that this hospitality, I didn't know her, and I heard that this hospitality professor had won this award, I thought, like, how is a hospitality professor furthering the advance of mental wellness? So I called her up to talk to her, and she basically has just published a book called Hospitality Vibes. the Future of Hospitality (50:27.804) you're seeing the Future of Hospitality (50:36.282) I thought it's hard. I find like microfaster. Like what I've had for extra button. Jeremy McCarthy (50:50.213) And it's all about the fact that the future of hospitality, because hospitality is under pressure from things like Airbnb and you can just go and stay in somebody's house. The restaurant industry is under pressure because you can just order food any from anywhere and have it delivered to wherever you are. So the thing that is going to protect the future of these industries is the vibe that you get by interacting with the people. And that that is really the magic of the hospitality experience. And that is what is going to make the, you know, the brands and businesses that will be successful in the future will be the ones that are able to create that feeling of, you know, that vibe and that connection between the colleagues and the staff. And I thought I thought it was beautiful. And I I loved meeting her. And, you know, I she was definitely she would fit right into this conversation very well. So maybe Arjun, you the Future of Hospitality (51:40.57) But I it I thought you have you think. Jeremy McCarthy (51:48.699) You should invite her into the next round table. Simone Puorto (51:49.143) Next time. the Future of Hospitality (51:50.562) Next time, yeah, this is just a pilot. We're only touching the surface, that's clear. let me move on to Keith. Keith, you've spent years working around cognitive recovery and neuroacoustic technology. What made you believe this was a problem worth solving in the first place? And what are you seeing in people that convince you there was a genuine need for this? Keith (52:16.925) Okay, so my background I guess would explain a lot of this. and then why specifically in hospitality, I think we kind of touched on it with how the guests arrive with allostatic load in this first event, right? And so this was a need case, right? Like I come from the world of healthcare. What I mean by that is is specifically I used to work for a company called Epic, which is one of the largest electronic medical record companies in the world, right? And so this idea of the the the the human being a a medical digital data was something that I grew up with in like the early two thousands, right? And so this was a part of my very basic fundamental thinking from kids or from a from an early adult. Right. And then I went and got an MBA and then I went and sailed around the world for a couple of years. And then I wound up working for Deloitte. Right. And I went up doing some healthcare consulting for Deloitte. And in doing healthcare consulting, I start to see the convergence of the electronic medical record. the Future of Hospitality (52:47.663) But that will make that block with the polishing out of my face and you think about it. I hope to talk about it, but it isn't more than more. I thought it's very much. Keith (53:14.243) And strategy and execution and operations. So all of these things where the the data from the patient is being used to drive what operationally the things are changing within the hotel or the hospitals themselves. Okay. And so that concept got me understand technology, the data is influencing operations, right? So technology is influencing operations. So with that concept, I just kind of had that in my mind. I had started a company called Locate Your Care, which was an on demand healthcare platform. the Future of Hospitality (53:19.256) But pushing. Keith (53:44.118) When you needed access to, let's say, an elective service like Botox or something like that, you could open up this app and you could actually say, I want this Botox injection, I'm gonna want to pay this much cash price for it. It was a US-based service, cash prices in the States, the healthcare system is very unique there. This market was working, COVID happened, and I shut the business down because the product that I was offering was no longer relevant. the Future of Hospitality (53:56.986) I think I'm going to have a purpose of the path and I think that's a good thing. Keith (54:07.999) Right. And because I was offering elective services that were then literally you couldn't go to the hospital unless you had an emergency. So dried up the market, and then I just basically said, I'm out, I'm going sailing. And me and my wife went out sailing, and I've been out sailing on a boat for the last five years in my life. Right. And about two years ago, I stumbled upon a man in Morocco, a guy named Yassin Dakawi, who had been working in neuroacoustics for the better part of the last fifteen years. And his the Future of Hospitality (54:27.193) I think we'll have a thing we might use the Keith (54:37.375) was used initially for his own personal recovery and then was used for performance and he set a couple of world record sailing records. I looked into his technology, I looked into what he had built, and then I came involved and helped him craft, we helped build this into a strategy to say where should you deploy this? And then started asking who are the people that are using this technology. And the people that we found out were using it were guests. the Future of Hospitality (54:59.8) I think that's a five time I could look at that. Keith (55:03.071) at hotels when they were using it and why? Because that's when they had time. That's when they had 15 minutes that they could stop and be still. Right. And then we f we found out that everyone wanted a good night's sleep. This is what you guys are trying to sell. We had, and so the concept of like was there, the science was there. I looked into that about two years ago, saw that it was with my medical background, I was like, wow, it's kind of like we just forgot that this existed. And it's really nervous system regulation. Forget all the other stuff of it. It's just really a way to help influence the nervous system. Right. And so seeing it work personally on me, seeing the stories that I've just seen shared with me of people that literally it changed their lives. Like I was both personally convinced and then scientifically convinced. And then it became about finding a way to make it deployable. And then this is where my background as a software as a service and the architecture and the HIPAA compliance and the s data security, because we can collect information on a personalized manner where we can get a snapshot of your nervous system and then assist that in providing sounds that can support that. the Future of Hospitality (55:54.206) I think what I think is like this has got here because this is that I guess that has multiple hands, and I'm I think that right this is the right part of the journey from the part of the path. Keith (56:02.089) and also assist in dovetailing that into the experiences that are trying to be created. So if you've got a guided meditation, for example, or something like that that you're trying to create, assisting the people being in the right nervous system to go for that, or if they're getting ready to go on a nature hike, or if they're getting ready to go for the fire pit. And so dovetail, and this is what I mean about it being frictionless, is being something that works is not enough. You have to get it to be used by the individual, right? And then it also has to make sense to who you're deploying it through. the Future of Hospitality (56:24.241) I also have to make it very much that we have to understand. And so then we'll have around. Keith (56:31.455) And so this is the whole concept around like the that what's akin to it is is this stuff only works as Javier was saying, is if you actually get people to do it repetitively. Right. And the only way you make it repetitive is you introduce it to them when they're at the hotel. And then you let them take pieces of it back with them. This is the lifestyle changes that you're talking about, right? But you start offering them pieces of digital assets that assist them in this process. Right. And so this is the idea. And so where I'm going with this is. Javier Suarez (56:36.794) Wow. the Future of Hospitality (56:46.168) But then is that I think that is just the process. Keith (57:01.077) hospitality is one of many we're reaching through to healthcare in this sp specifically and I'm not gonna make this about this, but primarily trying to work with met military veterans, PTSD, because it's very mass deployable this, right? And you're looking for people that are outing dysregulated systems and then offering them a tool to help regulate back into space. so believe in it because I've seen it work. I believe in it because the science is there from it, both individually and then also for me specifically. the Future of Hospitality (57:21.964) So I'm going to do Keith (57:29.193) And then I believe it because I've seen it be deployed and I've seen get I've seen hotels use it with guest usage on a pass-through method. So I believe in the business model and I believe which means I believe in its ability to be deployed and then actually used because that's the actual matters. And you have to get this to be used by the guest, so then they can therefore actually have the experience. And Javier, to your point, guests don't know what they want. That's why you have to get clever with how you actually get that information from them. Javier Suarez (57:34.234) Yeah. the Future of Hospitality (57:40.664) Actually, actually Glendic for the next one that is going to be after it will not be work for that proportion time. I don't think that's the Keith (57:54.464) Right. And it's a combination of it of very astute analysis of what you're receiving in terms of the data from them, not just personal data, potentially as you start collecting public health information data. Hotels are woefully unpro ill-prepared to recognize that they're basically storing right now Ph di, which is private health information, and they're ripe for all sorts of lawsuits. and because you're going to start using that information to make actual decisions, and that puts you right in line with violation of it. Right. And so the architecture around it's just not there. It's not understood. so it's a big broad question. Hospitality is the place we came to initially because we could see a direct demand demand right to the guest, both in terms of what you put mentioned. Sleep is the biggest one. And then calm meditation experiences, like trying to keep people regulated. They arrive with allostatic load. They want something to basically be like chill out, right? Helping people facilitate in those two is where we get the uptake. Proving the model works for individuals. Javier Suarez (58:21.762) Yeah. Keith (58:49.567) reaching in through healthcare because really where we see the value of this being distorted is is people that actually level live in today's world what we're really talking about is everyone, everyone has a nervous system that's dysregulated. And so we need to be thinking on mass scale and hospitality. Again, I go back to it and say hospitality is the best piece of infrastructure, best piece of industry positioned to deliver wellcare over the next twenty to fifty years. The hospital system, the healthcare system is not. It is to handle the acute at the end. All of the stuff leading up to that is ripe for the picking. And it's living in spaces of longevity clinics inside of the spas in of hotels. Right. I'm surprised that there's not a unified brand actually at this point going out there and saying we are this. and I think it's because there would they would go into the concerns that Javier might have is you're medical, right? Then you're medical. And then you got a whole different set of liabilities and and responsibilities associated with it. So how do you tow that line? I don't know, right? But I see that's this this is a piece of it. So the Future of Hospitality (59:35.903) I think it's a good idea. Fantastic. Thank you for sharing. Anyone want to comment on that? Keith (59:48.447) Long winded answer, but that's kinda I don't know if that helped or not. Jeremy McCarthy (01:00:00.82) I think I I would I would link something back to what Javier said earlier because you know ha ha Keith observed that this new technology was really being being discovered in a hotel and and by guests in a hotel. And Javier also talked about six senses, you know, really thinking outside of the box and introducing their guests to to new experiences that they haven't had the opportunity to try before. And I I always think about it like w when when you're delivering wellness in a hotel context, there there are kind of two kinds of wellness guests that we are catering to. One is you have your, you know, real wellness aficionado who already has a s an established wellness routine and when they're traveling, their routine is disrupted. So so your job with that guest is like, okay, how do you help this guest just do what they already know they need to do? They have certain foods they need to eat, they have certain exercises they need to do, they have certain practices, and and how do they maintain that when they're traveling? But the other kind of wellness guest, which is actually the much bigger segment, is the guest that doesn't really have that lifestyle completely embedded. And they don't really know what their routine should be, and they don't really have all these practices figured out. And when they travel, their routine is disrupted. So you have an opportunity to break them out of whatever you know patterns they've had up to that point and introduce them to something new that they've never tried before. And a lot of people experience their first massage, their first personal training session, their first yoga class. or their first, you know, kind of neuroacoustic session while while they're traveling and they're and they're at a hotel. So hospitality is a great is like a great touch point where people get exposure to these things for the first time that you know drives curiosity and drives them to incorporate it into their lives. Keith (01:02:06.505) And you're so and it's so well positioned because trust is such a huge component of the requirement for the delivery of health and welfare. Right. And hotels have one of the strongest associations with trust because you also have to trust it in order to stay there and put your head down at night. Right. And so that ability to use that trust, I I I have yet to see a brand effectively do it. But I suspect over the next five years, some hotel brand. the Future of Hospitality (01:02:23.522) I think it's possible. I had the that's what Keith (01:02:35.583) is going to figure out how to leverage their trust to be the credible badge for their actual wellness, right? That's the that's the key. And as soon as you have a hotel that's synonymous with the delivery of wellness, right, then you're that brand, that's the that that's the coup de grave what you're looking for now. If it's Oman at the moment, then in the next 20 years, that's going to be what that's going to be, in my opinion, because the the the market call it longevity, call it wellness, call it healthcare, whatever you want to call it, it's trillions and trillions of dollars. And it will continue to grow massively because it's what becoming one of the few things that still has a price on it, which is time. The longer you can stay healthy, there's a and people are show we're demonstrating people are willing to spend millions and millions of dollars on it. Right. And so anyway, it's an opportunity. See how see who captures it's my in my opinion. the Future of Hospitality (01:03:22.516) And that is That is why we are having this conversation because this is which and again I'm saying it, we're just touching the surface and you just confirmed that this is a massive growing industry in itself. And I'm glad that we are having this conversation. but we are over an hour and I think we should should end it right here. Or pause it and continue in another conversation at some point. because I believe we have a series on our hands here. And I want to thank you all for taking your time to be part of this conversation. I really loved it. and again, I I just feel that we are only scratching the surface. So thank you all. Keith (01:04:04.503) Thank you all for your time greatly. Real pleasure, guys. Javier Suarez (01:04:04.927) Thank you, guys. Jeremy McCarthy (01:04:05.287) Thank you, Arjan. Great. Yeah. Thanks everyone. the Future of Hospitality (01:04:07.955) Alright. You have a great day. Stay online. Stay online for now. cause I need to yeah, stay online. Hold on. Keith (01:04:12.495) okay.