How all-day brunch became a scalable concept

we ask our waiting staff to in the morning in the weekend when they when they welcome guests whether they want a cappuccino or even start with a mimosa as a fixed welcome to every guest would you like mimosa to start with and what you then see is then that let's say out of the 10 people eight will say no and two will say yes and before you know it everybody's on the mimosa because when they see the first table then the other table oh that's nice oh let's go for it welcome to the fmb advantage part of the future of hospitality podcast my name is gabi and my guest today is michel heisman co founder of ted's all branch together with his wife he built a concept that doesn't think in breakfast lunch or dinner but in moments in 10 years this idea feels more relevant than ever welcome michiel thank you nice to be here so yeah i'm really hyped that you're here you're you have a really entrepreneurial lens and you build platforms restaurants we can dive into everything but before we get there let's be let's start simple when people meet you for the first time how do you describe what you spend your time doing yeah so we feel that we are still building into a hobby that originated 10 years ago which started really small with one restaurant and which has now grown into a group of restaurants of almost 16 locations open which we do based on the premise and the idea that my wife had 10 years ago sana when she was walking in as a guest in amsterdam hospitality venues that she noticed that when she would come in at somewhere at 11am that it wasn't possible to order lunch any yet or at 3pm the lunch was already gone people were looking strange if you would if you would want some champagne for your breakfast or some mimosas but people don't know when who is having their weekend and how your day works and how your day is going so she basically came up with the idea okay so we should limit a little bit the the rules that people have or that they currently in pray in place and she felt the best way to describe that was to offer brunch because brunch feels a little bit the in between moment that you can do before lunch or after lunch or whenever and is a moment on hospitality where you can basically serve a little bit extra and have some nice drinks on the side and really have a nice leisurely moment and not as functional as people do and that's the that's the philosophy where we are building on and we hope to have a lot of more locations than we currently have yeah super awesome and i think it's interesting like you said you don't know when people have their weekends or not but what was the moment when you realized that this all day brunch could be more than just a fun idea because now 10 years later it's so big when did you decide well this has a really big potential i think after the first summer so when we initially started it took a little bit of while for people to get acquainted and then before we knew it it really started to gain traction so initially we were like hyped and psyched and really enthusiastic and then we were like okay so we need to figure out if they will still be coming in six months or then if the hype then really goes really fast just kept on coming so then we thought okay let's try whether or not it would work in another city so we went to utrecht as our second location and then we really came across the differences in cities in terms of the the acceptance of specific concepts so people were unaware what a french toast was to name an example so we noticed okay so this is a nice let's say entrepreneurial learning that not everything works the way that things work in amsterdam and then when there also we started to gain more and more traction we really thought okay so there is this really nice target group and target audience of let's say mostly females that really want to take time and see other people during the day whereas the let's say masculine side really looks looks each other up let's say at 5 or 6pm when with some beers and bitter baller so we are a little bit more i think the masculine side is a little bit more boring so when we noticed that the second occasion also started to gain traction then we were like okay so why not one more and we basically continued to do that and yeah so we always basically say okay it was a hobby and then it got a little bit out of hand so that's where we are super interesting and it's cool right that your hobby is your work and that you can just do that every day i think for sure yeah what is in that moment when you're like building this new concept and going through other cities like certain decisions that stayed with you and that yeah really help shape test branch in in the current state so i think that for us absolutely crucial is is the way that we try to color a little bit outside the line so that means that we are really informal and that means that that needs to work in all aspects of your let's say of your surface so in product offering but also in the way that people communicate with you so our staffing is absolutely crucial in this and also to make sure that everything in every location that you visit has its own identity rather than being a complete copy of the last one because then it really becomes that you feel that you are basically being pulled through let's say a two structured service plan and which we of course have because we offer this whole idea okay what what what would be the perfect guest guest experience but we also that it need that that it's really relevant that people feel comfortable and welcomed and people are let's say authentic also in the way that they work with you so it's really we really look in all aspects that everybody everybody and everything has a little bit of ted's vibe and and that goes from the music being a little bit too loud at our locations rather to than to be a little bit too soft and all those aspects there are a lot of little things yeah but what would you say like when someone walks into text for the first time what do you hope they feel well i do hope they feel that abundance i think is a little bit and a really a leisurely feel so what we are our mission or ideas a little bit okay have a little bit feeling of the weekend every days so the way that we look at it and anticipated when we open a menu we all we still feel that okay so it's difficult to choose between the things that we offer and there are always things on the menu where you go like okay i think i'm not sure whether or not they're going to like it but it looks really nice so let's try it and in terms of the way that we it's always a little bit of bustling feeling in our locations because even during the day so the netherlands is not really a breakfast country so what you notice from locations between let's say 9:30 up to 11 it starts to welcome its first round and then but when you come in for basically for what the dutchies think of lunch basically at noon have their sandwiches yeah then at almost all our locations you'll see that there's already yeah we're already in our midst of our second round of guests so there's a lot of things happening it's always a little bit crowded and crazy that's what we really like that that's what we really like it as an aspect of it because that really is the the way that we feel that really is yeah and how because you're you're saying it's sometimes a little bit you already had your second round so it is a different operational flow how do you guys yeah optimize this as well being the chill and the relaxing tests that you are yeah so for us so we are a little bit in between so you have a little bit more the evening side of hospitality basically works with let's say average spend that they hope to achieve between let's say 50 €100 for us this average spend is lower just due to not the amount of food that you eat but still the perception of let's say also that gas that lunch is cheaper than dinner so we strive for an an average band of let's say €25 per person which we then if you look at the amount of chairs that we have means that we yeah at some locations specifically in the weekend we have the every every seat is will be filled at least four times because also the amount of luckily also the amount of guests that want to work or stay and visit us but also amount of revenue we need to make it all worth worth our while because you just need if your spend is lower you need more quantity to make it to reach your your your revenue goals yeah that that's totally true and i'm also interested in like how do you do the menu then because how you're doing the whole day the whole brunch how did you design the menu so it would be optional over like optimal for the kitchen but also profitable but also keep your concepts yeah alive in that in that sense yeah so the the whole so the good story would be is that we have a really really scientific approach to this short story is that basically the menu is devised by whatever son of should be on the menu being the let's say the the let's say the concept owner of that she's responsible for let's say all the the decorate the decoration of whole locations the and also the the creation of all the recipes with of which of course we get help from the chefs and people that work with us but what we so we we we try to have a broad menu that allows for service throughout the day but of course also here in the past 10 years there have been sufficient moments that we thought okay this would work and then figured out that it really either became too impractical or was a a problem in the yeah let's say the time that it will take to create something and all those things yeah but it ended up so if we look now we're really kind of happy with the things that we have we only look to expand a little bit more in the afternoon offering and to make some a little bit of to make this a little bit into some commercial we also just launched our own cookbook last week so for those who are a little bit interested to see okay what what are the rest the recipes of things that they offer it's available at the all day brunch cookbook at bulpuntkom so so people i know please go buy the book and when we make it or come visit our restaurant yeah it's an interesting because you started with we're focusing more on the on the female side more women are are coming in and i know as a woman we love to instagram and make photos of our food and etc do you also take that like how intentional is the visual side of the dishes when you design the menu it is important but we also know so for us it's a little bit in between so at the one hand yes it all needs to be instagrammable but on the other side also means for us that it still needs to be we don't have the time to spend 10 minutes on each individual plate because then people will start to nag that they need to wait too long for their food so where others really use up to flowers to decorate their dishes we don't go that far but we do feel that everything every dish should look lavender with so and basically my wife says the the soul of each dish is the sauce that you serve it with or in or under so the things we take to heart and we always do things with poach eggs they should be runny and if we notice that because you cannot see that on the outside when you poach them but if we see that there's sometimes when you serve on which is a little bit over poached and we take them back we offer no poached eggs because those are things that we really found find yeah they're in our core values even yeah yeah and i love that you're saying core value because when i hear this story of debts and how it started it's for me it feels really about freedom the concept is freedom and the reason why i'm saying that is what you said about your wife she wanted to have lunch and you want to have lunch playing whatever you want etc so freedom is something that i really feel and how important is the idea of freedom in time vibe and choice for guests you think well i think so i think so i think that the there are so when we started 10 years ago there weren't that many people doing anything with brunch so and then when we were we were down a few years down the line and we then back then still had pancakes banana pancakes on our menu and then at some point everybody started to do pancakes we felt like okay so now the pancakes is starting to become a concept rather than then that's the concept so we try to stay so that for us was basically that we said okay it's not time to move on and and go on and try something else or something new we liked we tried to surprise and we try to feel that that basically it should be welcoming in some such a sense to come at our location that you feel like okay this is not going to be a functional dish and that's a nice part out of it because there's also already there's so much to choose there are so many restaurants so we just try to stay a little bit humble and see that we try to come up with the nice dishes and the nice interior for people to welcome people to come to our place rather than to go to the neighbors would you say more is more or less is more more is more or less is aboard that's the that's one of our slopes everywhere yeah now so now for really so and for us and some people might find it that okay maybe that also might some people find too typical but we actually do surface trainings where we ask our waiting staff to in the morning in the weekend when they when they welcome guests whether they want a cappuccino or even start with the mimosa as a fixed welcome to every guest would you like a mimosa to start with and what you then see is then the let's say out of the 10 people eight will say no and two will say yes and before you know it everybody's on the mimosa because when they see the first table then the other table oh that's nice oh let's go for it oh it's a nice day it's sunday or it's a nice it's nice weather outside or we have a weekend off without the kids or we're about to go shopping which is nice or we celebrating a moment which is also nice so we really try to amplify that part of it i love that is there something because your guys are doing things really differently in a sense like the all day concept mimosas and at at 9 o' clock is kind of breaking barriers that we currently have traditional like what could traditional restaurants learn from the approach you and that are are doing so i think i think that you really start need to look for something that is really what what in intrinsically motivates you to to serve so that is really something where you are enthusiastic about so for me i could never go and be enthusiastic about whatever the surface of yeah name an example the a sandwich with roast beef and whatever because it's just it's for me as something that's basically something that you would give everywhere but if that's your if that's if you are whatever you are really enthusiastic about eggs or about croissants or about what i've heard so people notice the fact whether or not it's an you're doing it because you have the idea that you read it somewhere as a trend you need to do it or that is something that you feel like okay this is this is me and that's basically what we what we feel and what son also really feels in the extension from all the interiors of all the restaurants and the menu is that it's that's it's the way that we feel is the nicest way and you're welcome to have your own opinion whatever but we try to do two things is a is to be really have a surface surface side first so we will never be the we will never make the decision okay we now decide for our guests that we only will do we want we will stop with serving meat for instance that we want to cater for everyone so for us there's hygiene in our menu that we always have a nice some nice vegan dishes we always have some nice gluten alternatives we always have so we always source everything as much as possible locally biologically we have all our all our meat is halal for us that is the way that we feel okay so those are the rules that you need to live by in modern hospitality but we to basically advocate okay come here because you should be eating this or you should be drinking that so we try to be coming and let the people decide and just keep it fun yeah i love that and would you say this is maybe a trend or is it a shift where we see that customers want more freedom instead of more guidance on the menus in the moments i think i think partly so but sometimes i read trends that's good that you basically read okay we're going into smaller dishes and ozempic style whatever and then then we are serving shared brunches at that's that weekend that i go like a paw but you don't know so you don't so frost is the same i know from already let's say from almost 10 years ago that we were serving let's say french young french girls coming to amsterd where i would say okay they share a croissant and that that's a hard much more they will probably will not be able to eat and they would eat our menu and you would go like but i don't know some people so if people skip their breakfast i don't know whether or not they're doing intermittent fasting or whatever maybe to do one meal a day want to do is from from our point of view is that if you have the things with us it should be that you go like this was nice yeah yeah and like i said i think freedom is a big question word that i'm hearing coming up it's like freedom about what you eat but also freedom about when you eat and i think that's something maybe where where we really see behavioral change with the customers going there and would you say maybe that based on that we maybe are breaking the barrier of traditional breakfast and lunch and diner structures now and so i do feel that it becomes so shifts that i do foresee is that dinner really becomes an let's say 7 8pm onwards thing so early dinner really i think will require a different type of offering than basically real sit down three course meal because if you want price wise you want to really i think have the idea that you then spend an entire evening and then then the costs are that's a bit in line with the spend of an entire evening rather than just for one and a half hours a quick meal so the and there's a lot more i think offering in let's say not more functional but fun let's say stuff from burger places what kind of fast italian concepts and everything so those will take a place for people who want to spend their money still in hospitality but want to do the the limit the let's say the the food part to let's say a smaller and then basically have more time of more money for drinks so i think people are thinking more about the what what where they're going to spend it on because of the increase in in price so not so everything is getting more expensive but people are also having more money so it's so i want to stay away a little bit from that hospitality is getting too much too expensive but going to be i think that the the the the the let's say out of home food offering is increasing so much that there is yeah you're basically now have your yeah your how do you say it your competition from the goes from let's say retailer to to city spar to out of let's say smaller concepts and grab and go concepts and concept because as yeah so last year it was the buns the year before it was the the the the the croine and we'll we'll see what this year will bring but i do think that those hype souls continue to come and go that it does really all cater to a wherever you want wherever you are whenever you feel like it you can have things that you crave and that basically works a little bit in in our philosophy as well because that's a little bit the way that we look at food ourselves as well yeah and you're already doing this philosophy for 10 years you guys are expanding and you're going to different cities so that's super cool but i'm really curious how do you guys do it because you have a philosophy that's really really nice and you want to bring that to different city different city different city what are like the processes that you do when you go into a new city so initially it starts off with finding a right location and for us right location not necessarily let's say the most busy shopping street because we are a little bit more in in eat in than than grab and go so we have let's say a list with cities where we want to be those need to be 100k an offer in terms of inhabitants we are looking in that we feel that all the for us relevant target group so it should be there should be sufficient young people it should be the so there needs to be either a university or there needs to be so that's what we're looking at and then yeah basically there is a long list of cities where you can then go and we are now looking into those locations where we feel that we can really find that we can have staffing in order and that we have operational side or in the logistical side set up so next month we will be opening one more location in amsterdam and a location more in breda so where we and both both cities we already have a test location so it will be an add on but that's not that's not a not a requirement it's more that we feel that we should have find a location where we think that it has the let's say the connection and the feel when you walk into it that you feel like okay this is not let's say an average location that you can find at done some places but it has its own specific fuel and and then it needs to meet or let's say more hard requirements in terms of rent seats square meters it needs to be on the corner it needs to have a terrace it needs to yeah so that's and that's basically i think everybody what everybody wants and longs and looks for and then we're going to a new location so we just we'll we'll just yeah we'll try out and we'll we'll talk to influencers and we'll be we welcome everybody to have an opinion and to post it online and then basically it's judges are out the jury is out and then you'll see whether or not people like it or not and luckily up to now everybody then likes it and welcomes it and then you work from there yeah and what is also you already have so many locations how do you yeah keep the team do like have the restaurants for example have like systems or habits to make daily operations go smoother for example yeah yeah yeah for sure yeah so so last few years we have been investing a lot in our organizational structure so every location is location leader and a number of shift leaders then there is a regional manager that basically challenges the the the the location leader to make sure that all the processes are being followed we use a lot of let's say digital communication for this as well it's let's say also with small learnings and with small e learnings and you name it next to technical support and service trainings on all the locations and then every month or six weeks we have all the managers come back and we'll have specific topics that we'll discuss with them also for them to let them exchange information amongst themselves as well so there's a number of things that we that we do and but it all started with basically us writing down okay what would be the ultimate guest journey and what so if this is the guest journey if our guest journey is that we want to have 11 dish menu where you can let's say choose between 12 different types of coffee yeah then we create a surface menu where we say okay everybody needs to have a drink within three minutes because if there's a group coming in for from eight for eight people and they they yeah they choose eight different types of specialty coffee that doesn't work for them yeah we don't have a full automatic machine so it won't be there it won't be in the table on the table in so then it becomes okay whenever they sit down we ask them for their drink for their warm drink or for their drink of choice but we also need to okay do you really want some water and that means if they say okay can we just have some tap water we'll say yes because we go we won't be going okay so then you need to wait for your warm drink because we know that it will take while and we we want people to feel welcome and have at least something to drink so everything that you choose has impact on other choices and we try to have let's say a service plan that really works and that means that we are basically challenging this in ourselves every every month to improve because there are also tons of things that go wrong with our locations because you work you work with people and you work with food and you work with yeah with guests that also are not always the nicest because everybody's always everybody's always bitching about stuff part of my french but it also they also sometimes just have guests that really are either hangry we always say okay this person was probably hangry let it go and next one will go better because it's also yeah that's just how things go but because it's still hostility yeah yeah no sometimes guests can be like a pain in the ass right you are doing your best and then they are just criticizing everything but let's look at the positive guest already we're talking about the guest journey i think the guest journey is like yeah it's like a user journey and it gives some feeling right we know if people are coming in they're probably touristy so we give them water etc would you say that maybe guests are more loyal to the feeling the guest journey rather than the menu and the physical product so i think we've been working with we've done quite a lot of trainings with this also with let's say external council the open it is really i think the such an open door that everybody says it is because it's the first smile and the first welcome and that you are welcomed it's the surprise to have during your stays any bit of a surprise can be a talk where you don't expect it can be whatever and let's say a side of a brownie next to your coffee which you didn't expect which can be the way that your food is prepared so you i think you need to have something that basically triggers the mind that goes like okay hey this was this was different and then it's the the the way that you say goodbye because if you because if you leave without proper goodbye then you you walk out and you still go like okay i didn't know what to expect and whatever and that the and it's hygiene what needs to be on the plate but it needs to be if you if you're looking into okay so why would people come back people will always come back for a smile but if they need to come back for a smile then they need to be in the area if you want them to get on the bike or in the car or on a plane or in a train to then it needs to be something special on the table as well something that they feel cannot have on another location and that can be because they it's a really it can be a source it can be whatever but it's i think that that is really for us still the the usb should be in the combination because if it's just if you have generic food and service then people will still come back to you whenever they are around but they won't step in the car come up and to have an average whatever dish they can have anywhere else yeah yeah no i i think that's what you need to have something unique but also the emotional payoff for the guest needs to be big right the smile to come back is a really really important thing do you think the industry is maybe focusing on that already or they should focus maybe more on that so the problem is i feel in the industry is that the industry is i think that the main worry that we have as an industry is that there are not sufficient people wanting to work in this industry with an intrinsic motivation to work in this industry yeah oh the amount of people that we also so i don't really care about your technical skills but you need to be intrinsically motivated to work reality because otherwise you will not be able to look people in their eye and feel and make a connection and feel and say hey how are you doing and how do you feel so and if you cannot do that if that becomes unreal because of the fact that you do it only because you need money or only because you whatever yeah then there's a problem and i think that the the amount of people who are intrinsically motivated we can have discussions that they need to go up even a little bit earn a little bit still a little bit more or still a little bit less or whatever and in my opinion the whole problem at this moment in the netherlands is there is insufficient people who will determine for themselves hospitality is my career of choice and i feel that because i've had a number of different types of companies a lot of tech focus with a lot of developers and things and or technical marketing things and whatever and i feel for myself i think that you can get most out of life if you feel that you make connection with other people and that they are actually happy with so so we have had people that worked with us where we at some point needed to say okay if you prefer to stay behind your laptop then work with our guests as a manager then you're not the manager that needs to work with us because that nothing really happens within that laptop it works it happens with your guests on the floor so that's the so those are things that i think are the the the the the things where we need to not yeah what we need to focus on is getting more people enthusiastic to work in hospitality and have them i think you need yeah we need to stop make it yeah then the difficulty is to how do you keep them and that means they need to make that yeah and specifically the ones for us on those locations that are really busy yeah then you really need to spend yeah it really can be hard working so then if you need to do that four days in a row then yeah afterwards i can understand that you need a break so don't let those people work six seven days a week and work them over the hours that you want them and we also had these discussions in the past and we say okay hey i want to work less days or can i work full time but then in three or four days i can make long but you just see people just going down in terms of their the way that they can connect with their guests and that i think should be crucial yeah i'm super interesting and it's something that is playing in the whole industry in the hospitality industry like having those dutch tigers like the worker tigers which is a dutch term for hospitality tigers that really love to drop and really go into it and want to work with the people people and i'm really like looking and curious on how that will change because there is kind of a crisis on on that part and we always close the future of hospitality podcast with a question about the future of course and my question to you is what kind of dining experience do you believe will feel outdated in 10 years from now feel outdated yeah they are so and 10 years is a long way so you can yes i just recently was level was reading more along that that we are now moving into again the let's say the the the the dutch classics with stumpled and whatever i think that everything is connected to let's say the a lot of aspects that will happen at that time so i do feel that if we continue if the meat prices are going to continue to rise as they're doing right now then i really feel that eating out will have less to do with meat and will have more to do with let's say an another type of thing having the base making up the base of the dish so either pasta or pizza or rice or potatoes or whatever because at some point i feel that you cannot if you go out for dinner you need to pay €40 for let's say a small steak of 180 grams with some fries i think at some point we'll start to do those things yourself at home and i don't really see this changing really fast into let's say into other pricing so that i don't see that going down really let's go let's let's look at it like that and i think at some point there will be less and less really specific specialty stores that then really explode and that's because of the i think that the setup and start of something also to get towards a point where you know okay i feel that we are a little bit settled and we can handle a little bit of fallback and whatever that will take that just takes that takes a few years and i feel that there are a lot of examples of nice let's say people that come up with nice enthusiastic plans and ideas but it will become more and more difficult with those increasing costs to to see that as much as you used to see them in the last few years let's say it like that a little bit i think that are really interesting views on the future i want to thank you so much for sharing your perspective and being so open about the moments running restaurants about 10 year anniversary of ted which is awesome i want to say to the listeners at home if you enjoyed this conversation make sure to subscribe to the future of hospitality and join our newsletter that's where we share more insights for people building and running restaurants hospitality businesses this was the fbr advantage until next time and keep questioning the way things have been done